How can GOD, a being without origin, be trusted?

[crispalmer]

how can a being that has always existed know anything about its own knowledge? how does god know that he actually knows everything? how does god know that his understanding and judgments on any and all possible things is actually correct??

how does god know that he does not actually have a creator that created him to believe he always existed and is all knowing simply as a practical joke?

 

[sandandfoam]

Why do you expect God would think like a human?

 

[crispalmer]

Why do you expect God would think like a human?

why do you expect god thinks at all?

why do you expect god knows everything?

why do you expect god even exists?


we can play this game of hide and seek all day. but fact is, you believe god has no origin and is all knowing, and apparently god believes, or knows the same. what does god base his knowledge on other than himself? nothing. there is no proof his knowledge is actually correct, because god doesn't know any better than what he knows.

 

[sandandfoam]

why do you expect god thinks at all?

Thinking is what humans do, I can't speak for God

why do you expect god knows everything?

I claim no knowledge of Gods knowledge

why do you expect god even exists?

Because when I look at the world God is what I see

you believe god has no origin and is all knowing, and apparently god believes, or knows the same.s

You have not as yet ascertained my beliefs

what does god base his knowledge on other than himself? nothing. there is no proof his knowledge is actually correct, because god doesn't know any better than what he know

You seem to be arguing with yourself here.

 

[crispalmer]

Thinking is what humans do, I can't speak for God


I claim no knowledge of Gods knowledge


Because when I look at the world God is what I see


You have not as yet ascertained my beliefs


You seem to be arguing with yourself here.

what is god?

 

[sandandfoam]

what is god?

I understand God as that which is eternal within in me and that which transcends me. God is of course not the same as my understanding of God.
As I see it, God is reflected in the wild Atlantic, the beauty of poetry and the world around me. God is the Mystery that reveals Itself to my senses but is beyond the grasp of my mind.

 

[LuisDantas]

Trusting god, it seems to me, is something that must be done out of faith. It is not truly possible to justify it rationally.

Which is not to say that it is wrong per se, mind you. But I see no point in attempting to propose that there is a transcendent god just to then propose to validate his credentials.

Although I suppose I have done that under different circunstances for slightly different purposes, so go ahead, although I personally still fail to see the point.

 

[sandandfoam]

Trusting god, it seems to me, is something that must be done out of faith. It is not truly possible to justify it rationally.

Which is not to say that it is wrong per se, mind you. But I see no point in attempting to propose that there is a transcendent god just to then propose to validate his credentials.

Although I suppose I have done that under different circunstances for slightly different purposes, so go ahead, although I personally still fail to see the point.

Hi Luis,

I'm not sure I follow Luis - would you mind explaining your point to me?

 

[crispalmer]

I understand God as that which is eternal within in me and that which transcends me. God is of course not the same as my understanding of God.
As I see it, God is reflected in the wild Atlantic, the beauty of poetry and the world around me. God is the Mystery that reveals Itself to my senses but is beyond the grasp of my mind.

so you do not believe god is an actual being?

 

[sandandfoam]

so you do not believe god is an actual being?

I believe that all being is within God and I might believe that God is Being.
God, to my mind, is about experience rather than understanding. If I were to understand God I would be greater than God and that is clearly not the case.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi Luis,

I'm not sure I follow Luis - would you mind explaining your point to me?

The premise of the OP strikes me as self-contradictory. I can conceive of no way of establishing that there is an entity that knows everything, nor of wondering which, if any, mental proccesses such an entity would have.

Basically, either you believe that such an entity may exist or you do not.

So I do not see the OP's questions as truly useful, or at least I do not align with them enough to see the answers as more interesting than the fact that the OP bothered to ask the questions. I am now wondering why he did.

All the same, I do not see attempts at establishing the limits, attributes or mental and moral frontiers of an hypothetical God entity as generaly futile. On the contrary, I have engaged on them myself to the point of firmly establishing to my own satisfaction that it is not at all possible for God to exist and to dislike atheism. I also decided that if god exists, he cares little if at all whether people follow "the right religion", because even by human parameters it is all too clear that being an adherent of a specific faith is simply not important.

The bottom line is that I fail to see a point to the thread, but that only shows that I have a hard time understanding the point. It may exist and be too unusual for me to understand.

 

[crispalmer]

Trusting god, it seems to me, is something that must be done out of faith. It is not truly possible to justify it rationally.

Which is not to say that it is wrong per se, mind you. But I see no point in attempting to propose that there is a transcendent god just to then propose to validate his credentials.

Although I suppose I have done that under different circunstances for slightly different purposes, so go ahead, although I personally still fail to see the point.

the question is, how can god know the extent of his knowledge and that his knowledge is actually correct.

 

[LuisDantas]

the question is, how can god know the extent of his knowledge and that his knowledge is actually correct.

I certainly do not know. I can answer just "supernaturally", but that is really exactly the same as me not knowing.

Maybe I would mind that if I did believe in God. Who knows?

 

[crispalmer]

I certainly do not know. I can answer just "supernaturally", but that is really exactly the same as me not knowing.

Maybe I would mind that if I did believe in God. Who knows?

this is my point exactly... we don't know. even if we believe an imaginary god being actually existed. heck even if god's existence could actually be proven, we, and more importantly god himself, would have no way of trusting or verifying the accuracy of his own knowledge. or anything regarding anything he would say..(is what he said true, false, good, bad, complete, incomplete etc.).....because there is nothing he or we can base/judge/evaluate it on .

 

[Sees]

this is my point exactly... we don't know. even if we believe an imaginary god being actually existed. heck even if god's existence could actually be proven, we, and more importantly god himself, would have no way of trusting or verifying the accuracy of his own knowledge. or anything regarding anything he would say..(is what he said true, false, good, bad, complete, incomplete etc.).....because there is nothing he or we can base/judge/evaluate it on .

You could base what the voice/being tells you on your own experiences and perceptions of reality as well as philosophical morality and gut feelings. Why not?

The problem you will have with the questions is God to many/most is a super exaggeration of anything deemed good or necessary for life and existence. It is all you can see and can't see. What you can sense and what is beyond the senses. Basically you ask if this is personal or have something representing mind/thought/awareness.

It's the starting block for most religious questioning people go through from childhood on. Really most people can't even describe their thoughts on such things and pass the buck to others who have/claim special revelation or realization/insight.

Only convincing you do when it comes to other people and this type of concept is lip-service convincing. Each persons going to decide what their heart and mind or gut feelings say at the end of the day. They may pass the buck to a prophet, guru, preacher or just go with what feels nice and secure for description but not much how they truly, personally see or feel.

 

[Thief]

how can a being that has always existed know anything about its own knowledge? how does god know that he actually knows everything? how does god know that his understanding and judgments on any and all possible things is actually correct??

how does god know that he does not actually have a creator that created him to believe he always existed and is all knowing simply as a practical joke?

Given credit that He can say....'I AM!'.....
He might then be self aware enough to realize.....
He would be First in mind and heart.....and alone.

Stands to reason, I think.
Someone had to be First.
Would He not know it?

Then the problem of having to listen to your own Echo and never hear someone else speak.
The universe might be large.....
But if your are the only One....it is solitary confinement.

Splitting your spirit and to be in two places might be do-able.
But then you are speaking to your reflection.
Substance would be your creation and your only other option.
Spirit in physical form.

and here we are.

 

[crispalmer]

You could base what the voice/being tells you on your own experiences and perceptions of reality as well as philosophical morality and gut feelings. Why not?.

because we cant judge god don't you know. isn't that what the vast majority of god believers say? so if we cant judge, and god cant judge himself then nothing god does or says can be confirmed accurate, good, complete etc. god could just as well feed us a bunch of crap, knowingly or unknowingly....

 

[sandandfoam]

The premise of the OP strikes me as self-contradictory. I can conceive of no way of establishing that there is an entity that knows everything, nor of wondering which, if any, mental proccesses such an entity would have.

Basically, either you believe that such an entity may exist or you do not.

So I do not see the OP's questions as truly useful, or at least I do not align with them enough to see the answers as more interesting than the fact that the OP bothered to ask the questions. I am now wondering why he did.

All the same, I do not see attempts at establishing the limits, attributes or mental and moral frontiers of an hypothetical God entity as generaly futile. On the contrary, I have engaged on them myself to the point of firmly establishing to my own satisfaction that it is not at all possible for God to exist and to dislike atheism. I also decided that if god exists, he cares little if at all whether people follow "the right religion", because even by human parameters it is all too clear that being an adherent of a specific faith is simply not important.

The bottom line is that I fail to see a point to the thread, but that only shows that I have a hard time understanding the point. It may exist and be too unusual for me to understand.

Thanks Luis,

I agree with you.

 

[crispalmer]

Given credit that He can say....'I AM!'.....
He might then be self aware enough to realize.....
He would be First in mind and heart.....and alone.

Stands to reason, I think.
Someone had to be First.
Would He not know it?

Then the problem of having to listen to your own Echo and never hear someone else speak.
The universe might be large.....
But if your are the only One....it is solitary confinement.

Splitting your spirit and to be in two places might be do-able.
But then you are speaking to your reflection.
Substance would be your creation and your only other option.
Spirit in physical form.

and here we are.

what if a deistic supergod was first, who then created god and made god believe that he always existed, and that he had all the knowledge???? how would this created deluded god know this wasnt the case? he wouldn't.

 

[Thief]

what if a deistic supergod was first, who then created god and made god believe that he always existed, and that he had all the knowledge???? how would this created deluded god know this wasnt the case? he wouldn't.

Sounds like that self-reflection problem I mentioned earlier.