How can GOD, a being without origin, be trusted?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

why? do you not understand the burden of proof? here, i will explain it.

if you pull a random baseless unscientific assertion out of your bunghole, it is up to YOU to prove your claim, not up to everyone else to disprove it.

now, to teach you a lesson i gave you a taste of your own medicine and pulled my own unscientific assertion out of my own stinky bunghole.

you claim one omnimax god created the universe, i claim one omnimax god created a being far superior to us(which we call our god) who then created the universe.

so now that we are on equal footing in lala land, each with one baseless claim, I ASK YOU how is your claim any more credible than my claim? how do you know to trust your version over mine?

even if your god somehow made himself known to all human kind and personally told us "i am omnimax" HOW WOULD HE REALLY KNOW? he wouldnt. he could easily just be a limited being, created by an actual omnimax god, who implanted delusion into your god.

you have no way of verifying god's words and neither does he.

You made a claim first that "how can we know if god is who god is" I presented the omni-Max natures qualities that theologically are attributed to God. Or as put by Anselm God is the best thing possible. The burden is not on me it is on you to show why these qualities could not possibly exist. Why? Because you are the one who made your original claim. What you've turned a potential good discussion into is your attempt at soap boxing and ridiculing others. By mere definition of what theists attribute God there is no "god thinks" those are human qualities. I would recommend you actually look up what arguments have gone on throughout the years between theists, non/theists, agnostics and atheist so you can better understand what people mean when they say God. It doesn't matter if God actually exists or not, however in your claim it is an assumption that God does. Following that assumption than you must define God. If it is a being that just thinks it is God than you are not discussing God.

 

[crispalmer]

You made a claim first that "how can we know if god is who god is".

"how do you know?" is NOT A CLAIM. it is a question regarding a claim. more specifically, it questions your claim that god is Omni-max.

I presented the omni-Max natures qualities that theologically are attributed to God. Or as put by Anselm God is the best thing possible..

this is your claim. I ask how do you know your claim is correct?

The burden is not on me .

the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. which, :slap: IS YOU.

What you've turned a potential good discussion into is your attempt at soap boxing and ridiculing others. By mere definition of what theists attribute God there is no "god thinks" those are human qualities. I would recommend you actually look up what arguments have gone on throughout the years between theists, non/theists, agnostics and atheist so you can better understand what people mean when they say God. It doesn't matter if God actually exists or not, however in your claim it is an assumption that God does. Following that assumption than you must define God. If it is a being that just thinks it is God than you are not discussing God.

I am discussing the being you call god, and I submit to you that your descriptions of god may be wrong and you would have no way of knowing. neither would your god, because while you may believe your god to be omnimax, and your god KNOWS to be OMNIMAX, he could actually just be a limited being superior to us that was created with false knowledge and delusion..... now in response you say "well, you are not talking about my god, because my god is omnimax so he couldn't possibly be subject to this possibility" but I point out to you that you don't have any way of knowing this to actually be true because you cant base this omnimax description of god on anything (hence baseless).

your god is only omnimax as far as he knows, which although he knows his knowledge to be unlimited, could be a delusion.

 

[natasha levchenko]

how can a being that has always existed know anything about its own knowledge? how does god know that he actually knows everything? how does god know that his understanding and judgments on any and all possible things is actually correct??

how does god know that he does not actually have a creator that created him to believe he always existed and is all knowing simply as a practical joke?

God is powerful and wise. look at the Universe he has created!!! but we are humans and it is hard for all of us to grasp his wisdom.
"*Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish. " is written in the Bible

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

"how do you know?" is NOT A CLAIM. it is a question regarding a claim. more specifically, it questions your claim that god is Omni-max.



this is your claim. I ask how do you know your claim is correct?



the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. which, :slap: IS YOU.





I am discussing the being you call god, and I submit to you that your descriptions of god may be wrong and you would have no way of knowing. neither would your god, because while you may believe your god to be omnimax, and your god KNOWS to be OMNIMAX, he could actually just be a limited being superior to us that was created with false knowledge and delusion..... now in response you say "well, you are not talking about my god, because my god is omnimax so he couldn't possibly be subject to this possibility" but I point out to you that you don't have any way of knowing this to actually be true because you cant base this omnimax description of god on anything (hence baseless).

your god is only omnimax as far as he knows, which although he knows his knowledge to be unlimited, could be a delusion.

If it thinks it is god then it is not god. In theistic discussions there are conditions that are set forth to establish that this being is god the best thing possible. Anything short of being that is not God. It's pretty simplistic, the argument you are going for works for humans it's like asking why you exist.

And you are making a claim the claim is simply "how can one know?" That is a claim. When I asked you what God you were speaking of you said the Abrahamic god. So I gave you the conditions of what would make the Abrahamic god God. Those are the qualities that I mentioned. Without those qualities that are innate to it you are not discussing the Abrahamic God. I made no claim about my God, you came in and asked how would one be able to knows When presented with how one can know it is your job to show why that would not be true at this point. So why are the omnimax qualities, qualities that can be false? You're not showing that, instead you just return back to your claim that one cannot know, it's a worthless argument at times because the same can be said for anything. How do you know that you're not just figment of your imagination? And all te other how can you know questions.

 

[crispalmer]

God is powerful and wise. look at the Universe he has created!!!

I am not disputing that your god is powerful and wise (far superior to human kind and the rest of his creation) I am asking you how you know that his wisdom is unlimited. how do you know that he is the be all end all? because the bible says so? the bible was written by imperfect humans, at best it is god's actual word, but even if that is actually the case, how can god's actual words be trusted to be truth? god could very well just be telling us self serving things, or could actually be delusional and know(believe) what he tells us to be the truth, when there are many other possible actual truths out there, one of which is that he is just a delusional being superior to humans created by an actual omnimax god.

 

[crispalmer]

If it thinks it is god then it is not god.

your god does not think to be god, your god "knows" to be god.... is that better? or will you argue your god does not know anything either now???

In theistic discussions there are conditions that are set forth to establish that this being is god the best thing possible. Anything short of being that is not God. It's pretty simplistic, the argument you are going for works for humans it's like asking why you exist. .

and this is what you seem incapable to wrap your head around

WHILE YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THE GOD CONCEPT TO BE OMNIMAX, you do not actually KNOW that the creator in question (who you personally believe to be an omnimax god) actually is OMNIMAX GOD.

you are only making the baseless assumption that he is omnimax god, rather than a limited being superior to humans.

you ignorantly assign the creator of the universe the omnimax label, without any actual knowledge that he really is omnimax.

And you are making a claim the claim is simply "how can one know?" That is a claim. .

if you honestly cant tell a claim, from question regarding a claim. I give up on you. I will try one last time.

CLAIM: UNICORNS EXIST
QUESTION: HOW CAN ONE KNOW UNICORNS EXIST?

When I asked you what God you were speaking of you said the Abrahamic god. So I gave you the conditions of what would make the Abrahamic god God. Those are the qualities that I mentioned. Without those qualities that are innate to it you are not discussing the Abrahamic God..

I understand the conditions, my question is, how do you know that the creator of the universe fits the conditions of the Abrahamic god? how do you know that the being in question fits the omnimax condition?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

your god does not think to be god, your god "knows" to be god.... is that better? or will you argue your god does not know anything either now???




and this is what you seem incapable to wrap your head around

WHILE YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THE GOD CONCEPT TO BE OMNIMAX, you do not actually KNOW that the creator in question (who you personally believe to be an omnimax god) actually is OMNIMAX GOD.

you are only making the baseless assumption that he is omnimax god, rather than a limited being superior to humans.

you ignorantly assign the creator of the universe the omnimax label, without any actual knowledge that he really is omnimax.







if you honestly cant tell a claim, from question regarding a claim. I give up on you. I will try one last time.

CLAIM: UNICORNS EXIST
QUESTION: HOW CAN ONE KNOW UNICORNS EXIST?






I understand the conditions, my question is, how do you know that the creator of the universe fits the conditions of the Abrahamic god? how do you know that the being in question fits the omnimax condition?

Because there are some basic assumptions that are being made already.

1. When you asked "How can God, A being without origin, be Trusted?" THe use of the capital G usually denotes that you are talking about the monotheistic Abrahamic God. Not the myriad of other gods that have been theorized to exist in history.

So you are already working on this assumption as far as I can see. SO yes we are discussing the Abrahamic God, the reason I had asked you earlier was to make sure you understood what you were talking about.

2. The focus of your question assumes that God already exist and is not a figment of imagination.

3. This God has the omni-max qualities.

4. The virtues of those qualities means that it isn't something as simple as "how does God know or think" to pose that is questioning something other than God.

It's not assigning anything to the creator. It's an accepted definition of what the creator is. To say that it isn't, means that it isn't the creator.

 

[Willamena]

and this is what you seem incapable to wrap your head around

WHILE YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THE GOD CONCEPT TO BE OMNIMAX, you do not actually KNOW that the creator in question (who you personally believe to be an omnimax god) actually is OMNIMAX GOD.

you are only making the baseless assumption that he is omnimax god, rather than a limited being superior to humans.

you ignorantly assign the creator of the universe the omnimax label, without any actual knowledge that he really is omnimax.

That's quite the claim.

Now where's the burden?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Humans go..."I think, therefore, I am"
God goes..."I don't think, therefore, you are".

Can it get any more simple than that?

 

[Thief]

Humans go..."I think, therefore, I am"
God goes..."I don't think, therefore, you are".

Can it get any more simple than that?

Let's back up a bit.....
Someone had to be first....with the ability to say ....'I AM!'

I see this as the logic of regression.
I just believe in Spirit......First.

 

[crispalmer]

Because there are some basic assumptions that are being made already.

1. When you asked "How can God, A being without origin, be Trusted?" THe use of the capital G usually denotes that you are talking about the monotheistic Abrahamic God. Not the myriad of other gods that have been theorized to exist in history.

So you are already working on this assumption as far as I can see. SO yes we are discussing the Abrahamic God, the reason I had asked you earlier was to make sure you understood what you were talking about.

2. The focus of your question assumes that God already exist and is not a figment of imagination.

3. This God has the omni-max qualities.

4. The virtues of those qualities means that it isn't something as simple as "how does God know or think" to pose that is questioning something other than God.

It's not assigning anything to the creator. It's an accepted definition of what the creator is. To say that it isn't, means that it isn't the creator.

I understand your definition of your god, and why my argument does not/can not apply to a god with your definition.

the problem I pose to you is that you have no way of knowing that the creator of the universe actually IS your omnimax Abrahamic deity.

when you talk about god, you mean the creator of the universe do you not? and you assume that this creator is the omnimax Abrahamic deity do you not?

so how do you know your assumption is correct? this is my question. I point out that you can not know for sure.

I REPEAT. I am not arguing the possibility that an omnimax god can not be trusted, or that an omnimax deity could be somehow fooled into believing it is omnimax when it is not.... I am arguing that YOU CAN NOT KNOW whether the creator of the universe, who you believe to be an omnimax deity, actually is an omnimax deity. I submit to you the possibility that the creator of the universe might actually be a limited being. a possibility that has equal credibility.

NOW, do you understand the argument?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I understand your definition of your god, and why my argument does not/can not apply to a god with your definition.

the problem I pose to you is that you have no way of knowing that the creator of the universe actually IS your omnimax Abrahamic deity.

when you talk about god, you mean the creator of the universe do you not? and you assume that this creator is the omnimax Abrahamic deity do you not?

so how do you know your assumption is correct? this is my question. I point out that you can not know for sure.

I REPEAT. I am not arguing the possibility that an omnimax god can not be trusted, or that an omnimax deity could be somehow fooled into believing it is omnimax when it is not.... I am arguing that YOU CAN NOT KNOW whether the creator of the universe, who you believe to be an omnimax deity, actually is an omnimax deity. I submit to you the possibility that the creator of the universe might actually be a limited being. a possibility that has equal credibility.

NOW, do you understand the argument?

Plantiga's argument is one reason people will accept it. The argument of course has its flaws.

Here's a version
A version of his argument is as follows:[4]
A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
It is possible that there is a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, (by axiom S5) it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.