How can GOD, a being without origin, be trusted?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

how so?



we dont TAKE the agreement that god is knowledge. we believe it blindly through faith because god said so(or rather, the humans who invented god wrote so in their holy books). but how do we know that god was not created to believe that he is all knowledge and that he always existed? ..... so god honestly believes this(OR THINKS HE KNOWS THIS, WHEN HE REALLY DOES NOT) and he passes this on to us through scriptures.

You asked for a reason why would people believe in God. I gave you a description of what the qualities of God are. The Omni-max qualities have other ways to explain why they may not be logical in conclusions. But going by the blind faith argument alone isn't enough to make this a good argument.

 

[crispalmer]

You asked for a reason why would people believe in God. I gave you a description of what the qualities of God are. The Omni-max qualities have other ways to explain why they may not be logical in conclusions. But going by the blind faith argument alone isn't enough to make this a good argument.

i take it you concede that god can not be trusted and can not even trust his own knowledge that he is omni-max?

 

[sojourner]

fine, god does not have knowledge, god is knowledge. whichever way you want to describe your god doesnt change the possibility that your god has/ OR IS false knowledge. how do you know god is not false knowledge and how does your god know he is not false knowledge? you cant. and he cant.

Knowledge is an awareness of what is. Something that's false isn't what it is. if I have false knowledge of something, I don't really have knowledge. It's impossible for God, who is knowledge to be fake knowledge.

 

[sojourner]

of course we define god. for starters you just defined god as limitless(without boundaries) my question is how do you know god is limitless? and how does god know? god could very well have, or be the false knowledge that he is limitless. god could be the false knowledge that he is all knowledge.

You're wrong. God is largely unknowable. We can't define what we can't grasp.
Again, false knowledge is really not knowledge. It's impossible for existence to be nonexistence.

 

[sojourner]

how so?



we dont TAKE the agreement that god is knowledge. we believe it blindly through faith because god said so(or rather, the humans who invented god wrote so in their holy books). but how do we know that god was not created to believe that he is all knowledge and that he always existed? ..... so god honestly believes this(OR THINKS HE KNOWS THIS, WHEN HE REALLY DOES NOT) and he passes this on to us through scriptures.

How can existence itself have a pre-existent "other?"

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

i take it you concede that god can not be trusted and can not even trust his own knowledge that he is omni-max?

No.

Because you're just not really arguing from the same context. Essentially you are already presenting the premise as false, if you do not accept that God are any of those things than you are not arguing the same God that a theist is arguing. Hence why it's like asking "when did you stop beating your wife". Your questions were a loaded question no matter which way the person answers it will always go back to "yeah but God just thinks he is"

 

[crispalmer]

Knowledge is an awareness of what is. Something that's false isn't what it is. if I have false knowledge of something, I don't really have knowledge. It's impossible for God, who is knowledge to be fake knowledge.

yes, this is what i have been saying all this time.... god can have/be the false knowledge that he is all knowing. meaning that god is not actually all knowing in reality, but according to his limited knowledge(that he believes to be unlimied) he is all knowledge.

 

[crispalmer]

How can existence itself have a pre-existent "other?"

when existence(god) is not really all existence, but only believes/knows to be.

god knows he is all there is, but only knows this as far as he knows, which he knows to be unlimited although it might really not be.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

how can a being that has always existed know anything about its own knowledge? how does god know that he actually knows everything? how does god know that his understanding and judgments on any and all possible things is actually correct??

Alpha God created all that exists (besides itself, but void needn't to be created). Considering this, it grants knowledge of it. If you build something you can know pretty much everything about it that came from your hands (if you insist that it's not true because you wont know every little detail of it, but emphasize on knowing most or all of the portion you created. God made existence, it has full awareness of it all because the entirety of the universe was created by it.

how does god know that he does not actually have a creator that created him to believe he always existed and is all knowing simply as a practical joke?

Concept of my God of nothing (void) aside, I would say that it's obvious that God existed in nonexistence before creating existence. Without reality being built, there can be no cause of the cause. The cause (God) happened simultaneously as the effect (the universe). Nothing could have created God because God was the first thing existing.

why do you expect god thinks at all?

Most people believe God is a conscious being, mainly because if God was just an active, unaware force then it would make existence a mistake, a flaw in the void, an accident. It may also extend that the definition of God would hardly fit, but that word is thrown around too much these days.

Because God is conscious, thinking is included, all conscious beings have thoughts, they are a major part of consciousness.

why do you expect god knows everything?

As said, God knows everything because existence was created by it, and therefore God knows all about it.

why do you expect god even exists?

Just seems logical to me, but it's obviously not for everybody.

what does god base his knowledge on other than himself? nothing. there is no proof his knowledge is actually correct, because god doesn't know any better than what he knows.

That is like saying a fiction author might be wrong about the protagonist's life or thoughts.

 

[crispalmer]

No.

Because you're just not really arguing from the same context. Essentially you are already presenting the premise as false, if you do not accept that God are any of those things than you are not arguing the same God that a theist is arguing. Hence why it's like asking "when did you stop beating your wife". Your questions were a loaded question no matter which way the person answers it will always go back to "yeah but God just thinks he is"

i dont have to argue from the same context.... i am presenting a possibility about your god, namely the possibility that he himself is just a deluded creation with the implanted
"knowledge" that he is the be all end all..... you can not discount this possibility any more than i can discount the possibility that your god exists..... this goes back to what i said about lala land. once you go off the deep end, youre done.

 

[crispalmer]

Alpha God created all that exists (besides itself, but void needn't to be created). Considering this, it grants knowledge of it..

god has knowledge of what he created, but not of himself... thats my whole point. he doesnt know anything about why or how he is what he is because as far as he knows he always was.... again, he could very well have been created by a greater god and had his knowledge limited.he doesnt actually know this.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

i dont have to argue from the same context.... i am presenting a possibility about your god, namely the possibility that he himself is just a deluded creation with the implanted
"knowledge" that he is the be all end all..... you can not discount this possibility any more than i can discount the possibility that your god exists..... this goes back to what i said about lala land. once you go off the deep end, youre done.

Hence why you are asking a loaded question.

God isn't considered a human, the qualities the omni-max qualities are the natures of God. By those natures there is no "I think". There are other reasons why the omni-max qualities cannot exist in God.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

god has knowledge of what he created, but not of himself... thats my whole point. he doesnt know anything about why or how he is what he is because as far as he knows he always was.... again, he could very well have been created by a greater god and had his knowledge limited.he doesnt actually know this.

Why can't it know anything about itself? Why wouldn't God have self awareness?

Besides, I'm sure God wouldn't be completely ignorant of his actual origins. In the physical world everything is limited and will die. In the spiritual world everything is perfect and eternal.

So in the physical world (ending) our memories will eventually end, such as why you cannot remember the moment right after you were born.

In the spiritual world (eternal) our memories will remain, permanently. God is a spiritual being, so logically God can remember everything up to the point of God's origins.

 

[sojourner]

yes, this is what i have been saying all this time.... god can have/be the false knowledge that he is all knowing. meaning that god is not actually all knowing in reality, but according to his limited knowledge(that he believes to be unlimied) he is all knowledge.

Knowledge is neither "limited" nor "false." Knowledge is what it is. Either God is knowledge, or God is not. God is described as all knowledge. if you want to use a different descriptor, that's fine. And I'll be asking how that's working for you.

 

[sojourner]

when existence(god) is not really all existence, but only believes/knows to be.

god knows he is all there is, but only knows this as far as he knows, which he knows to be unlimited although it might really not be.

Existence isn't belief. It's existence.

Believing in a God that is false, flawed, impotent, misguided, mistaken is incongruent with truth, knowledge, justice, goodness, compassion, love, mercy, forbearance, trust, potential for transformation. Since these are all things for which we aspire, why would we believe in a God that is incongruent with these things?

 

[crispalmer]

Hence why you are asking a loaded question.

God isn't considered a human, the qualities the omni-max qualities are the natures of God. By those natures there is no "I think". There are other reasons why the omni-max qualities cannot exist in God.

you believe your god is omni-max, but you dont know. your god knows he is omni max. but he doesnt really know either. he might actually not be omni anything, but merely a being far superior to human beings.

 

[sojourner]

i am presenting a possibility about your god, namely the possibility that he himself is just a deluded creation with the implanted
"knowledge" that he is the be all end all.

What you're presenting isn't a possibility about my God, because in your scenario, truth isn't possible, existence isn't possible, trust isn't possible.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

you believe your god is omni-max, but you dont know. your god knows he is omni max. but he doesnt really know either. he might actually not be omni anything, but merely a being far superior to human beings.

As it's a chaotic being, it might very well be true that God is omni-max.

 

[crispalmer]

Why can't it know anything about itself? Why wouldn't God have self awareness?

Besides, I'm sure God wouldn't be completely ignorant of his actual origins. In the physical world everything is limited and will die. In the spiritual world everything is perfect and eternal.

So in the physical world (ending) our memories will eventually end, such as why you cannot remember the moment right after you were born.

In the spiritual world (eternal) our memories will remain, permanently. God is a spiritual being, so logically God can remember everything up to the point of God's origins.

if god had no beginning, then he cant possibly have knowledge of his origin. he just is what he is, without the knowledge of why or how he is this way.... he cant say "i am this way because supergod created me this way" because as far as god knows no one created him..... now again, god could very well have been created and then given the knowledge that he was not actually created. we dont know, he doesnt know.

 

[crispalmer]

Knowledge is neither "limited" nor "false." Knowledge is what it is. Either God is knowledge, or God is not. God is described as all knowledge. if you want to use a different descriptor, that's fine. And I'll be asking how that's working for you.

really? there is no such thing as limited knowledge on a topic? how so? please explain.