How are these Great Beings explained?

[RoaringSilence]

This is a problem with most people in most religions, especially those raised in a religion. They are taught that theirs is the truth and all the others are false, so the person has an ingrained negative attitude about the other religions. But the other thing, that could be more likely for a Baha'i, is to think that since the religion is no longer relevant, why bother studying too deeply into it.

this is not applicable to dharmic religions , we're told everything takes its own sweet time but the destination is certainly the one source of all. and all souls eventually lead to moksha , at their own pace and time. different elements have different melting /boiling points so going astray is a myth ..its just a personal path for that element /soul. The ultimate responsibility of a souls well being is of the creator /source.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is this saying that necessity is the mother of invention. I have been wanting to unravel the apocalyptic scriptures for a while so your questions have motivated me to do that. I have been wanting to better understand Islam too, so regardless of your assessment of the answers, this has been something I need to do, to better my understanding. The other aspect is, that if the Baha'i Faith is true, then only the Baha'is can interpret the Apocalypse and explain it to others. That's an incomprehensible responsibility. When we go to heaven and face God, you will be asked why you didn't accept Baha'u'llah. Part of your response will be, the Baha'is didn't provide a satisfactory explanation. Then God will turn to me, and ask why I didn't do what was within my capacity to do.

I started those two Christian thread last week, once again working on improving my knowledge, advancing the frontiers of learning. On the topic of learning, when I first came on RF I noticed @InvestigateTruth posting prophetic proofs from an Islamic perspective. I've never seen anything like it. So while I wax and wane in my efforts to explain to you why Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are all the return of Christ from biblical scripture, why not ask my off-sider how the Baha'i Faith fulfils prophecy in the Quran, Hadiths and Islamic traditions.

The vision starts in chapter 4. The Lamb is found worthy to break the seal of the book in chapter 5:12. Is this Lamb, for sure, The Bab? And is every mention of the Lamb referring to The Bab?

The Woes? Are they Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u''llah?

The two witnesses... again Muhammad? And Ali? Are there any other verses that Baha'is believe are either Muhammad, The Bab or Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

 

[Vinayaka]

All this prophecies are for what ? what purpose ? why is the creator interested in some real estate issues of this 3rd rock from the sun?
Is the Abrahamic god "a jealous god" ?

I think a certain area of mind, one of worry perhaps, has a desire to see the future. Not content to say, 'whatever will be will be' they make prophecies that are reassuring for themselves. Given their current state of worry they're in, that makes sense. From the grander perspective, it makes no sense at all. Nobody can predict the future, and to go backwards, saying, 'Look at this! Look at this! You see, he predicted it!" is just creative reading.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I disagree. It's been a real uphill battle. Still is. LH's shift has been heartening. You were half way there in the beginning, lol.

But LH hasn't been around much lately either. He starts the thread, one of the longest serious thread on these forums, and then he disappears? Not even a defiant 'I shall return!"

When I first started thinking about the relationship between the Baha'i Faith and Hinduism, I reviewed the very little that was said in our faith about yours. Sure we have a few statements about Krishna, but nothing that says He founded a religion called Hinduism. There are references to the Bhagavad Gita but we have little to go on when it comes to acknowledging any degree of authenticity of these sacred writings. Who wrote it and when? How does it relate to the rest of Hinduism? How did Hinduism come about? So Hinduism in regards to Krishna doesn't fit the pattern of other religions. That's fine. I think the more Baha'is have real interfaith talks with Hindus the better educated we will be. You have worked in education so know may have an idea about how hard it can be to change attitudes when it comes to culture and religion.

LH (David) has been in and out of this thread recently. I touch base with him every now and then, and know he has a few health problems. David is the one Baha'i here who has contributed much more than IT, Tony, or myself. He really has put his heart and soul into it. But then you and @Carlita are the two top posters here with CG fourth, so this thread has really been your thread too. I have been a modest part timer, like yourself reluctant at first.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is a problem with most people in most religions, especially those raised in a religion. They are taught that theirs is the truth and all the others are false, so the person has an ingrained negative attitude about the other religions. But the other thing, that could be more likely for a Baha'i, is to think that since the religion is no longer relevant, why bother studying too deeply into it.

I don't think that's the view of Baha'is. I have learnt much about Christianity as that was my upbringing and its part of my culture. My wife's mother is from Japan so I have learnt a little about Buddhism. Although I have come across many Hindus, for cultural reasons that @Vinayaka has touched on, they are reluctant to talk about their faith as the Christians do. So all these religions are relevant because they are practiced by people we know and meet in our day to day lives.

 

[RoaringSilence]

I think a certain area of mind, one of worry perhaps, has a desire to see the future. Not content to say, 'whatever will be will be' they make prophecies that are reassuring for themselves. Given their current state of worry they're in, that makes sense. From the grander perspective, it makes no sense at all. Nobody can predict the future, and to go backwards, saying, 'Look at this! Look at this! You see, he predicted it!" is just creative reading.

exactly .. it seems like one the demi gods like indra who would be jealous of not getting enough worship.. if you recall krishna's attitude is indifferent towards getting worshiped nor did he have jealousy for demi's being worshiped.. instead he said i personally make sure that people get rewards for whatever effort or worship they show to demi's ...can you put this in better words and explain to the baha'i ..as i m not so eloquent .

if you reffer to ggs - NIRVAIR ( NO HATE / FREE FROM ALL HATE) is one of his key definitions from the root mantra . so this other god sounds like one of the gods from a heavenly planet who isn't getting enough worship which angers him (like indra).. when i read some parts of quran i felt god was mostly angry and raged at those who he couldn't convince via jesus and mosses

 

[Vinayaka]

exactly .. it seems like one the demi gods like indra who would be jealous of not getting enough worship.. if you recall krishna's attitude is indifferent towards getting worshiped nor did he have jealousy for demi's being worshiped.. instead he said i personally make sure that people get rewards for whatever effort or worship they show to demi's ...can you put this in better words and explain to the baha'i ..as i m not so eloquent .

if you reffer to ggs - NIRVAIR ( NO HATE / FREE FROM ALL HATE) is one of his key definitions from the root mantra . so this other god sounds like one of the gods from a heavenly planet who isn't getting enough worship which angers him (like indra).. when i read some parts of quran i felt god was mostly angry and raged at those who he couldn't convince via jesus and mosses

I've never read any Abrahamic scripture. Watching some guy yell at a congregation (on TV while browsing channels) about being sinners was enough for me. (Well, that and a ton of other things, lol.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't think that's the view of Baha'is. I have learnt much about Christianity as that was my upbringing and its part of my culture. My wife's mother is from Japan so I have learnt a little about Buddhism. Although I have come across many Hindus, for cultural reasons that @Vinayaka has touched on, they are reluctant to talk about their faith as the Christians do. So all these religions are relevant because they are practiced by people we know and meet in our day to day lives.

Actually, I think a good amount of religions have a "code of silence" mindset. Protestant Christianity and Nichiren Buddhism are the only two I came across in person and Bahai that share their faith. Muslims and Jews, probably, tend to talk about it among themselves. Catholics will discuss but if you ask them about what they talked about in confession, it's between god, the priest, and the catholic. The Santera I spoke with couple years ago said their faith is secret because of christian influence. They don't care for christian-minded folks who they generalize as white people. They are welcoming to african americans and spanish individuals though. It's probably the same with Buddhism in regards to what one prays and the personal meaning behind said rituals of a person.

It can get annoying when you don't want to be a practitioner of a religion to know more about it personally. I mean, that's probably why seekers are jumping into many beliefs because that's the only way they know if that religion clicks. If no one tells them about it personally they'll be taken more time searching than practicing.

I think there should be some "give in." Native americans, for example, won't give in because they feel americans will abuse their teachings since they weren't raised in it.

It's a catch 22

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you did, I certainly couldn't find it. But that's been common. So I'll repeat it. You had stated how each of the 'manifestations' had all started great civilisations, and I had asked which great civilisation the Bab had started, because I haven't seen any mentioned in history books.

On another note, as per my discussions with Adrian, have you now conceded (this is in the debate forum) that Krishna and Hinduism doesn't really fit into the Baha'i' teachings the way the Abrahamic ones do, or are you maintaining that you're right about that, that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism?

I think you missed my post, or didn't really look into it in details.
It was here:

How are these Great Beings explained?

 

[RoaringSilence]

This is a problem with most people in most religions, especially those raised in a religion. They are taught that theirs is the truth and all the others are false, so the person has an ingrained negative attitude about the other religions. But the other thing, that could be more likely for a Baha'i, is to think that since the religion is no longer relevant, why bother studying too deeply into it.

This isnt true even in my personal life, i am born hindu , who did schooling from a convent where jesus was everything ,celebrated x-mas and said daily xtian prayers . and now i rely on ggs mostly which is from sikhism. im hindu sikh xtian with utmost comfort no conflicts coz i know the part which is common ground and it works for me.
such is the case with most indians they re all secular to the core , we were not taught the differences , we only react when someone tries to say WE ARE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH and your way is wrong.. that's when my radar starts beeping,

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually, I think a good amount of religions have a "code of silence" mindset. Protestant Christianity and Nichiren Buddhism are the only two I came across in person and Bahai that share their faith. Muslims and Jews, probably, tend to talk about it among themselves. Catholics will discuss but if you ask them about what they talked about in confession, it's between god, the priest, and the catholic. The Santera I spoke with couple years ago said their faith is secret because of christian influence. They don't care for christian-minded folks who they generalize as white people. They are welcoming to african americans and spanish individuals though. It's probably the same with Buddhism in regards to what one prays and the personal meaning behind said rituals of a person.

It can get annoying when you don't want to be a practitioner of a religion to know more about it personally. I mean, that's probably why seekers are jumping into many beliefs because that's the only way they know if that religion clicks. If no one tells them about it personally they'll be taken more time searching than practicing.

I think there should be some "give in." Native americans, for example, won't give in because they feel americans will abuse their teachings since they weren't raised in it.

It's a catch 22

I became a Baha'i in 1990 after investigating the Baha'i Faith for 8 months. I am certainly appreciative that there were Baha'is who were open about their faith and willing to assist me at that time. I never felt pressured or manipulated. I find it more difficult to relate to Faith communities that are closed than ones that are open.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, now I remember, but in reality future predictions have no basis. Baha'is can say anything they want to. Rational people don't treat the future like history at all.

Its worth noting that the prophetic era ended with Muhammad. After Muhammad there is the age of fulfilment. The Abrahamic Faiths have mostly about moral and spiritual development. I don't have a problem if a prophet guides peoples and gives them hope and a vision for the future as long as it based in reality. The prophecies are there for a reason.

The very idea of manifestations starting great civilisations has many fallacies. Several of them didn't, not just those last two, but some of the others. In some places Noah is listed. What civilisation did he found? How do the Baha'i' explain all the other civilisations, like the Greeks, the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Indus Valley, etc."?

The majority of what we can identify as modern day civilisation has had one of the Manifestations make a significant contribution to the process of civilisation building. Noah is too far back for historians to make any meaningful commentary. The similar problem exists in regards to Krishna except instead we have conflicting narratives about what was or might have been His role if He existed at all. The Greek and Roman Civilisations are no longer around, and besides were influenced by other cultures with known manifestations such as Moses through the Hebrew peoples, Zoroaster through the Persians, and Christianity later on.

Baha'is agree that there have been other Manifestations that we don't know about. Besides that a constellation of spiritually outstanding people that contributed to civilisation in many different capacities.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This isnt true even in my personal life, i am born hindu , who did schooling from a convent where jesus was everything ,celebrated x-mas and said daily xtian prayers . and now i rely on ggs mostly which is from sikhism. im hindu sikh xtian with utmost comfort no conflicts coz i know the part which is common ground and it works for me.
such is the case with most indians they re all secular to the core , we were not taught the differences , we only react when someone tries to say WE ARE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH and your way is wrong.. that's when my radar starts beeping,

Christians quoting the following verse is the best example I know....

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

 

[Dawnofhope]

The vision starts in chapter 4. The Lamb is found worthy to break the seal of the book in chapter 5:12. Is this Lamb, for sure, The Bab? And is every mention of the Lamb referring to The Bab?

The Woes? Are they Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u''llah?

The two witnesses... again Muhammad? And Ali? Are there any other verses that Baha'is believe are either Muhammad, The Bab or Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

The woes are the advent of Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

The Lamb in 5:12 is the Bab. The term can be used also in regards to Abdu'l-Baha who was born on the night that the Bab declared to Mulla Husayn. It can be used more broadly to represent the Manifestation of God or the Baha'i era that the advent of the Bab symbolises.

I think we need a frame work to view the book of revelations:

Some key chapters:

(5) The book of the seven seals
(6) The Book is opened
(7) God's Servants are sealed
(8) The fate of the early church
(9) The fall of Christendom
(10)The course of Islam
(12) The travail of the world
(13) The rise of the Caliphate
(14) The world stage is set
(15) His name is revealed
(16) The end of the age
(17) Mysteries revealed
(18) Victory
(19) The triumph of Baha'u'llah
(20) Satan restrained
(21) The Holy city

So, there are several chapters dedicated to Islam.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Christians quoting the following verse is the best example I know....

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

do you think some cleric must've added this line just to make some $$ ? i mean is it possible to alter 1-2 lines just so you can claim exclusivity later?

god is a just god right? is this a reasonable doubt to have ...? that a corrupt cleric added some stuff in it...
( NOW if you say ..you don't know who wrote gita ..no proof..OKAY , sure...but whichever MAN wrote it..i follow THAT MAN.. coz THAT MAN was brilliant, you ve read the gita ...and you will be thrice as much shocked when you MERELY LISTEN TO A RECITATION of ggs..its a 7863478342 line poem ..in MUSICAL RYTHM... written by a farmer. people say Quran is a miracle ...LOL No where close to compare with GGS ..quran is written in broken format ..with no sequence and has already been reproduced .,but the website that have "surah like quran were banned out,)

just think like a normal human being... we in normal life don't throw away our trust to anyone ..do we?


now as far as only one way is concerned .. if you ve read gita ... and you saw how carefully krishna attends to people of different kinds and teaches them the way that will work for them...so nicely he takes the time to explain what to do if you re an x y or z type personality. in a concise and deeply meaningful way that touches your senses at a whole new level . he gives reasoning for everything he demands ... rather he doesn't demand ..he merely explains the pro's and con's like HE genuinely cares and knows his creation.

so if there is no other way but through christ ..wth happened to my ancestors ? if they died sinners and godless ... i have no choice but to show loyalty to my REAL life father.. ...in gita ...when Yudhister was on his way to heaven ..he was told that his brothers will go hell and only he gets heaven.. he REJECTED heaven for his family... and that's our culture.. we don't just grab the first train to heaven and be thankless to our caretakers in life and reasons for us being in existence..

jesus was a great personaLITY ... he may be the SON of GOD or GOD himself.. but for me MY OWN father comes before any other's father. and if he burns in hell i go burn beside him ..and not care about what im missing not being in hevan ..end of story,

my father changed my diapers when i shat and drank milk .. now is my turn to cushion his body from being burnt, coz he died non jesus.

 

[RoaringSilence]

can you give me proof that bahaullah's writings were not tampered with BY a RELIGION ExPERT CALLED - reza aslan .. the *** who lies about his degree on national TV. i think he has been tampering with bahaullah stuff ..if you have a proof that your writttings were kept protected as strong as coca cola's formula ..i don't belive a word of your baha'i quran/bible. am i being a reasonable person to not trust the book handling HUMAN ?...yes.
if you guy's din't deep freeze and vault the baha bible with fort knox security ..you leave me reasonable doubt.
Therefore my only assumption is that all books MAY have been written by men... hence i shall follow the book that sounds being written by a top class human.. I.e bhagwat gita.. ggs. to me your thao art language is utterly boring and doesn't connect with my soul.. sanskrit works for me..

 

[RoaringSilence]

i am arrogant , and i don't hide it .. i have good intentions ,...but i am arrogant sounding obnoxious brat. sorry for being manner-less. i admire your guys qualities .. but i can't fake being what im not,.i realize im doing a disservice by trying to promote my religion with this attitude ...but my real agenda isn't to promote ..i was looking more to vent out the anger on the things which pressure us to start doing the things you guys do by the oNE WAY ONE LAW ONE GOD OMGAWD the correcting other people's business and religion ...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a problem with most people in most religions, especially those raised in a religion. They are taught that theirs is the truth and all the others are false, so the person has an ingrained negative attitude about the other religions. But the other thing, that could be more likely for a Baha'i, is to think that since the religion is no longer relevant, why bother studying too deeply into it.

Two things stand out with this comment in my mind.

Firstly we have been given a book called the Hidden Words by Baha'u'llah, this is the Introduction;

HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES

This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue."

Thus were I to gather all the Holy Writings of the past and try to read them all to understand the inner essance, then the same thing can be found in the Hidden Words. Thus they are not irrelevant, the essence of them all, has been given as a bounty in 153 short meditations. (That adds to 9 as well )

Then there is the choice we need to make as to where to direct our efforts, this following passage, is to me the choice we must make.

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

In conclusion, I have to direct my fleeting moment, this short life, working with people also working to find our Unity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

MY OWN father comes before any other's father. and if he burns in hell i go burn beside him ..and not care about what im missing not being in hevan ..end of story,

The great news is that in this Age if we know and love God in service, then our Fathers and Mothers are forgiven by God. This has been given as a great bounty in this Dispensation.

We are to offer service for our Mothers and Fathers.

"Thou hast mentioned the station of parents in the next world. One of the special bounties of this Revelation is that whoever accepteth the Dayspring of the Cause, his parents, although they may not have attained the recognition of the Revelation, the splendours of the Sun of divine favor will be vouchsafed unto them. This is one of His bounties bestowed upon His lovers. Render thanks and be of those who are grateful."
(Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The Universal House of Justice, 1991 Aug 28, The Condition of non-Bahá’í Relatives after Death)

Regards Tony

 

[RoaringSilence]

The great news is that in this Age if we know and love God in service, then our Fathers and Mothers are forgiven by God. This has been given as a great bounty in this Dispensation.

We are to offer service for our Mothers and Fathers.

"Thou hast mentioned the station of parents in the next world. One of the special bounties of this Revelation is that whoever accepteth the Dayspring of the Cause, his parents, although they may not have attained the recognition of the Revelation, the splendours of the Sun of divine favor will be vouchsafed unto them. This is one of His bounties bestowed upon His lovers. Render thanks and be of those who are grateful."
(Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The Universal House of Justice, 1991 Aug 28, The Condition of non-Bahá’í Relatives after Death)

Regards Tony

my father's brother died non jesus and child less . and i claimeth bounty for all human kind , if thao not forgiveth everyoneth i shall protecteth all.