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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It is easy to take quotes of a religion out of context and portray it as being something it isn't. We need to look at all the writings to gain balance and perspective.


Since when should being able to produce babies lock women into household servitude?

O maid-servants of the Merciful! It is incumbent upon you to train the children from their earliest babyhood! It is incumbent upon you to beautify their morals! It is incumbent upon you to attend to them under all aspects and circumstances, inasmuch as God—glorified and exalted is He! —hath ordained mothers to be the primary trainers of children and infants. This is a great and important affair and a high and exalted position, and it is not allowable to slacken therein at all!1159 `Abdu’l-Bahā, Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas (Bahā’ī Publishing Committee, 1909 edition), p. 606.

Women having babies does not lock women into household servitude. Each family is free through consultation where men and women are equals to decide how best to manage the roles of caring for children, managing the home, and providing an income. Sometimes the most practical approach is for the man to stay at home and for the woman to work and there is absolutely nothing that stops a couple from making such a decision. Baha'i couples often have to make the same compromises as any other couple. For example the women because of her education may be in a better position to support the family financially. Sometimes it is simply preference rather than necessity that causes coupes to reverse roles.

Do assemblies step in and try to counsel the couples to take more traditional roles. No.


O Handmaids of the Self-Sustaining Lord! Exert your efforts so that you may attain the honour and privilege ordained for women. Undoubtedly the greatest glory of women is servitude at His Threshold and submissiveness at His door; it is the possession of a vigilant heart, and praise of the incomparable God; it is heartfelt love towards other handmaids and spotless chastity; it is obedience to and consideration for their husbands and the education and care of their children; and it is tranquillity, and dignity, perseverance in the remembrance of the Lord, and the utmost enkindlement and attraction.1163 Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File, chap. XVI, no. 749.

Abdu'l-Baha who said this, wished only to be know as 'Servant of God' which is what name literally means if translated. As Baha'is, men and women are chief concern is to serve humanity and that is the highest honour and rank.

Marriage is essentially an intimate relationship between two equals:

O ye two believers in God! The Lord, peerless is He, hath made woman and man to abide with each other in the closest companionship, and to be even as a single soul. They are two helpmates, two intimate friends, who should be concerned about the welfare of each other.

If they live thus, they will pass through this world with perfect contentment, bliss, and peace of heart, and become the object of divine grace and favor in the Kingdom of heaven. But if they do other than this, they will live out their lives in great bitterness, longing at every moment for death, and will be shamefaced in the heavenly realm.

Strive, then, to abide, heart and soul, with each other as two doves in the nest, for this is to be blessed in both worlds.
Abdu'l-Baha

The true marriage of Bahá’ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá’í marriage.
Abdu'l-Baha


Consultation between husbands and wives is central to decision making. Neither husband or wife should dominate:

Wives, in some cases, have a tendency to exert an unjust degree of domination over their husbands which, of course, is not right, anymore than that the husband should unjustly dominate the wife. (Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 225)

There are, therefore, times when a wife should defer to her husband, and times when a husband should defer to his wife, but neither should ever unjustly dominate the other. In short, the relationship between husband and wife should be as held forth in the prayer revealed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá which is often read at Bahá’í weddings: ‘Verily they are married in obedience to Thy command. Cause them to become the signs of harmony and unity until the end of time. (Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 225)


And as usual in these MAN MADE Patriarchal religions - the husband can have more then one wife and Sc**w the maid.

God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety [He who takes a virgin to serve him it would be permissible for him]1142 Bahā’u’llāh, The Kitābi Aqdas, p. 41.

There is only monogamy, and polygamy is not permitted in the Baha'i faith. You have provided no context to the above verse. I hope this helps.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 205-206

You have suggested that Baha'i men can commit adultery. Adultery is not permissible whether it be men or women.

The Bahá’í teaching on sexual intercourse is very clear. It is permissible only between a man and the woman who is his wife. (Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 344)

Chastity implies both before and after marriage an unsullied, chaste sex life. Before marriage absolutely chaste, after marriage absolutely faithful to one’s chosen companion. Faithful in all sexual acts, faithful in word and in deed. (Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 233)

 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well done to your community, it made me very happy to hear this.

Wish all well for me please.

Allah'u'abha and regards Tony

All good here in Dunedin Tony. We have New Zealand's oldest university here and are often blessed to have outstanding young people training in medicine, law, and commerce, both men and women without distinction. More often than not the chairman of our assembly has been a woman. No sexist stereotypes here! I think there are four out of nine women on our National Spiritual Assembly.

When all mankind shall receive the same opportunity of education and the equality of men and women be realized, the foundations of war will be utterly destroyed. Without equality this will be impossible because all differences and distinction are conducive to discord and strife. Equality between men and women is conducive to the abolition of warfare for the reason that women will never be willing to sanction it.
(Abdu'l-Baha The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

Woman must especially devote her energies and abilities toward the industrial and agricultural sciences, seeking to assist mankind in that which is most needful. By this means she will demonstrate capability and ensure recognition of equality in the social and economic equation.
(Abdu'l-Baha The Promulgation of Universal Peace)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As much as I disagree with the Christians on certain aspects of their world view, I also support thier right to express themselves providing it is respectful and couteous. Discussion about what is right and wrong, true or false are part of conversations in many aspects of life and we can't escape it. It is valuable in that it exposes us to ideas, values and approaches that are dfferent from our own. However at some stage once arguments or viewpoints have been expressed, and it becomes clear thats its not going anywhere, then we need to let it go.



Baha'is would recognise that the words of Baha'u'llah or any Manifestation of God are infallible, but most of us would recognise our friends who are not Baha'is see it differently. Therefore conversations such as these are an exporation of what is reasonable and what is not. I do not expect you to recognise the words of any of the Manaifestations of God as infallible. That is not your belief.


We have very similar takes. Strong about our own belief, but not applying it to others. Obviously, I wasn't referring to you personally in those comments.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Baha'is express their words differently but all speak with one voice, their views are just like the different notes of a song but the same melody.

You mean 'all Baha'i'? Not sure I agree, considering the differences between the 4 main speakers on this thread. Some have far more acceptance of other faiths than others. The variance in tolerance is obvious.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Just a question about returning to a physical body. Why is it important to come back to this world in anothr physical body?! Why not another?

For example, as kids we don't keep returning to kindergarten otherwise all we'd learn is abc and nothing else. We move on from kindergarten to primary school, high school and university.

Reincarnation sounds to me like continually returning to the kindergarten. Why not move onto other spiritual worlds to learn higher lessons other than what this world teaches?

The next world and others likely has a completely different curriculum for our evolved souls and having learned our abc's here why not move on to the next class?

In my view, the innate spiritual knowledge we've attained sticks with us, so each soul starts at the point where they left off. This explains why we have child geniuses, and the vast differences in people as to their spiritual abilities, or wisdom. So you just misunderstood it. Some people come back to the university class.

But since you don't believe in reincarnation at all, I don't see why it would matter to you. It's Hindu.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Obviously there has been a mistake made somewhere, definitely not by Moses but by someone else maybe a recorder, that Baha'u'llah is correcting. If it was Baha'u'llah Who spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush then He would have been fully aware of what Moses originally wrote and the fact He states it was Ismael means that Moses recorded Ishmael in His original Book.
Yes that is the Baha'i' belief. Not facts. Not the belief of nearly all the rest of humanity.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think the reason the Bible story calls Isaac Abram's only son, is because he threw Hagar and Ishmael out into the desert to die.

His only son with him from that point, is Isaac.

So Isaac gets to be sacrificed.

*

I don't think he was thrown out but he had to go out to get food or something. I think Abraham meant Isaac was his only son left. I honestly don't understand Bahaullah view of sacrificing a son that wasn't there.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I see now you are talking about a distant future. Thank you.
Sure....... cool.

No people apposing each other, sounds great...:), finally maybe we will all be working for the good of each other with quality of discussion.
You've already got quality of discussion. This thread is going to beat some records. Now that is a discussion. Although our posts contend, one with another, there is life in that very condition. Take away such diversity and there is nothing but mental slavery.
Careful what you wish for. :)

One can not watch opposition debates, they are worse than children. What a big waste of money is seen each day, as they try to get the better pun against each others personal character for the day.
Ah.... yes...... just like children, and their playground games. As I get older I realise that we never grew up..... nor does that matter.

I see the trouble is our ability to live morality as it is required.

I have no good track record in this regard, even knowing the laws. In the end I now know the wisdom of those Laws and I am again married to my Baha'i Wife. If we could live those Laws, the other issues would also dissapear.
Tony, we, almost all of us, are not immoral..... we are simply naughty. I still don't know where naughty crosses the line into wicked.

I guess for many, time will have to show if the Laws of Baha'u'llah are what we need, or if they are not.
Cool......... what Queen Victoris said.... ?

Always be well and happy. Regards Tony
And you....
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Why? Both are responsible :)

A baby needs its mother, nature has made this to be so and it is science that confirms the longer a mother nurses and bonds with her child, the more balanced the childs life will be and more healthy.

In the end this will unfold how it should. Those that choose the path can try to implement the required life.

Stay happy, regards Tony

I don't think so.
A Bahai Mother decided to keep her child with her through all, and educated the child herself through an 'in home' education plan (montesaurri?). The child was (imo) totally unprepared for the world once in teen years.... had the strangest view of all, and (imo) could not cope with the wide range of folks out there.
The word could be 'Unsocialised'. What children need is to learn how to survive in a world of differing folks.

But my point was this, if Abdul Baha's words should ever become the guidance for education, young men would be excluded from the vocation of teaching.

Equality does not seem to grow with Bahai, rather it seems to collapse.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think it is because you did not read the complete Tablets of Bahaullah, where He explained it.

In other words, both sides conflict with each other. Since Bahai is not a christian belief and you are talking about christian faith, I rather side with what christians and the bible say first. I can't see Bahaullah talking for biblical authors and the body of christ. That's very inappropriate.

Edit

That, and the tablet has a lot of information (just looked it up). Do you honestly expect me to change my mind to Bahaullah view of christianity rather than christianity's view of their own faith?

Investigator. That's like telling me what's in a house of another house owner by offering different layout plans than the one he, the owner, used and drew up to which his house was created from. If you two share the same contractor, I'd assume either you have the same floor plans (so no contradiction on where the rooms are for example) or your floor plans are false since you weren't the one that designed the house.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You mean 'all Baha'i'? Not sure I agree, considering the differences between the 4 main speakers on this thread. Some have far more acceptance of other faiths than others. The variance in tolerance is obvious.

Lack of Wisdom in how we share what Baha'u'llah has given should not be seen as lack of tolerance. That we all speak with each other, shows tolerance is happening.

I am sorry that if in sharing what Baha'u'llah has offered, that it appears I am not appreciative and tolerant of your Faith.

That we offer this message, is that we would hope tolerance of different views would also multiply. In the end to find how tolerant we really are, we must know what other people and Faiths have to offer.

Then I'm not human, because he doesn't speak for me, lol. I realise he spoke for you though.

All the Great Beings have spoken for all Humanity and have Given their lives and all for Us. I am very happy they did so. They give us life, they give us Faith.

Their sufferings for us can not be laughed off. It is either True or False. If it is false, then no issue, if it is True, our lack of acceptance will be a great burden.

I would offer we look at what lack of acceptance is already providing in the world.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
All the Great Beings have spoken for all Humanity and have Given their lives and all for Us. I am very happy they did so. They give us life, they give us Faith.

Their sufferings for us can not be laughed off.

But Tony, as you know, I don't believe that stuff. I don't believe in any of that stuff. To me, it's all very laughable. So yes, I can laugh it off, and do all the time. Still, you come out saying you're tolerant, than you go ahead and insult my faith by saying your faith is for me.

That's not tolerance at all. It's preaching, and it's narrow. It's totally intolerance. But let's face it, my expectations are probably way too high.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Several places, here;s two of them.

I see a disgruntled person has decided to make up a good story and another link uses the same made up story.

Divorce is a big issue. If the Laws of God were followed, Divorce would be minimal.

We were all warned these times would be hard to live in and hard to keep Faith.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
But Tony, as you know, I don't believe that stuff. I don't believe in any of that stuff. To me, it's all very laughable. So yes, I can laugh it off, and do all the time. Still, you come out saying you're tolerant, than you go ahead and insult my faith by saying your faith is for me.

That's not tolerance at all. It's preaching, and it's narrow. It's totally intolerance. But let's face it, my expectations are probably way too high.

I accept you do not accept that. :)

Could it be you are not Tolerant of what Baha'u'llah has offered from God. He is the Mesenger and we but share what is on the Table.

I fully accept you do not eat some of what is offered on that table, but consider it will remain on the table for others to choose.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
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