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How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Often, for people who are in the habit of projecting their views into the minds of others, 'we' is the chosen pronoun. More often than not, it should be 'I'. Even when you say 'we Baha'i',' you're subtly insinuating you personally can speak for all of Baha'i, when in fact some Baha'i' might disagree with you. In my view, 'I' is most often the more accurate pronoun. Certainly 'we' anything is subjective.

Yes I can agree that's 100% true in most cases but I don't think you can apply it in general to Baha'is. The unity of thought, belief and understanding amongst Baha'is, I believe has never been witnessed in human history except amongst the earliest disciples of the Manifestations.

Baha'is express their words differently but all speak with one voice, their views are just like the different notes of a song but the same melody. Diversity of expression is the expression of our different ways to try and convey the same inner truths we all know. Some of us grasp a truth more deeply than another but the same truth. We are all agreed and united.

As it is written:

“Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech, and myriads of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody; yet, alas, there is no ear to hear, nor heart to understand.”

Excerpt From: Bahá'u'lláh. “The Hidden Words.”
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Often, for people who are in the habit of projecting their views into the minds of others, 'we' is the chosen pronoun. More often than not, it should be 'I'. Even when you say 'we Baha'i',' you're subtly insinuating you personally can speak for all of Baha'i, when in fact some Baha'i' might disagree with you. In my view, 'I' is most often the more accurate pronoun. Certainly 'we' anything is subjective.

Just a question about returning to a physical body. Why is it important to come back to this world in anothr physical body?! Why not another?

For example, as kids we don't keep returning to kindergarten otherwise all we'd learn is abc and nothing else. We move on from kindergarten to primary school, high school and university.

Reincarnation sounds to me like continually returning to the kindergarten. Why not move onto other spiritual worlds to learn higher lessons other than what this world teaches?

The next world and others likely has a completely different curriculum for our evolved souls and having learned our abc's here why not move on to the next class?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If what you offer is World embracing and helps Humanity as a whole. I am happy to be part of the We you quote.

If there is a flaw in the idea, I am sure we could sort it out.

Regards Tony

WE (Ma Tin Jai and I) also offer Curry followed by chocolate cake and tea or coffee but I can't categorically say that is good for all humanity!! But all humanity are welcome.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Baha'i claim equality between men and women, - but, - when you read the texts, they still want women in traditional "woman's" roles..............
Baha'i teach that homosexuality is unacceptable. An outdated and illogical - religious - idea - with no scientific backing................

Baha'i aren't as advanced in their thinking as they claim.

Hi........ Yes, Equality for all would be a 'double-think' nightmare in a Bahai World.

The laws which control sexual partnership and marriage are primitive.

Laws on voting rights would exclude all non-bahais at all levels. Imagine that, if all Repubublicans (or all Democrats) were automatically voteless..... There are some jokes there, but only dark ones.

And Ruling Bahais could become an isolated and immovable rock. 'We cannot be wrong..... we are guided by God!'

But it could happen! People have been known to vote for strange leaders. Only in a Bahai World the decision would last somewhat longer than a few years.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hi........ Yes, Equality for all would be a 'double-think' nightmare in a Bahai World.

The laws which control sexual partnership and marriage are primitive.

Laws on voting rights would exclude all non-bahais at all levels. Imagine that, if all Repubublicans (or all Democrats) were automatically voteless..... There are some jokes there, but only dark ones.

And Ruling Bahais could become an isolated and immovable rock. 'We cannot be wrong..... we are guided by God!'

But it could happen! People have been known to vote for strange leaders. Only in a Bahai World the decision would last somewhat longer than a few years.

Firstly, Nature has deemed that males cannot naturally conceive so is Mother Nature discriminating in defining woman's role as a mother?

Next, Mother Nature defines a woman's role as a mother and the males as the father not the Baha'i Faith,

Thirdly, there are only 9 positions in the Baha'i Faith that women cannot hold. How does this make equality untrue?

There are more women in leadership and representative roles in the Baha'i Faith than any religion worldwide in a percentage basis because obviously we don't have the population other religions have, not yet.

Last of all, the Bahá'í Teachings say that it will be women who will establish universal peace, that woman, by nature, is opposed to war.

Now, one of the future duties of the Universal House of Justice may be to wage war against an oppressor and let's say the entire House of Justice are all women, and by nature, women are opposed to war, then this oppressor which could be another Hitler would be free to destroy the world.

That may not be the reason but it makes sense to me because Baha'is believe in just wars. You can't let a Hitler massacre millions and sit down and talk peace with the guy while he's building an arsenal to take over the world.

In every Civilisation both men and women are important and we must have all options on the table. An all woman House of Justice could possibly tie the House of Justice hands as it would not be able to wage a just war against a cruel dictator.

So just as childbirth has been given uniquely to women, the role of protection has been given to men. It balances out in the end because both play a unique but different role essential to the survival of the human race.

Equality doesn't mean sameness. Men and women have equal rights but not equal roles in humanity.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I

I need not to say One Word. What is required is already written. It will happen with us or without us. What We all need to do Is find and Implement the Message of Baha'u'llah into our Lives.

Each individual can choose to do this or not to do it.

I have chosen to try to follow what was advised.

Regards Tony

What do you mean you won't say one world (why caps?)?

I am saying if your religion teaches about humanity and you refer to yourselves as "we" (Bahai) would it make logical sense to say "we" humanity instead?

This question is how you express your belief not your belief itself unless Bahaullah spoke against talking as if you are part of humanity rather than separate from it as one group.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The laws which control sexual partnership and marriage are primitive.

They call Humanity back to Chastity, back to the strong foundarion of Unity of Family, which will again assist our progression to the Unity of Humanity.

The collapse of the Family Unit has brought many problems in communities.

Laws on voting rights would exclude all non-bahais at all levels. Imagine that, if all Repubublicans (or all Democrats) were automatically voteless..... There are some jokes there, but only dark ones.

What are you trying to say here? The Baha'i electoral process is seperate from the Civil Process. Please explain what brought you to these conclusions.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"When I asked you (or someone) to speak as we-humanity, and none of you do, what was the reason?"
It is Baha'u'llah that has spoken for all Humanity.

If humanity has one core and same message, why don't you speak as if you are part of humanity?

Not for=as

What we have to offer is that advice. We can not add one word of our own to that advice. If we do, we have watered down its meaning, the potency of the elixer.

How do you add to that by speaking as if you are part of humanity and speaking from one message as part of humanity?
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Please advise which Religion, that has a Foundation in God, is not accepted by the Baha'i writings?

Pagan.

There is no Religious Hierarchy in the Baha'i Faith. Women have been exempted from being elected to the Universal House of Justice. I see this this as a bounty and blessing.

Well that is obviously a bunch of bull spoken from a male point of view.

Equality is not sameness. Both Male and Female have different things to offer Humanity. Each in turn offer a Harmony that adds to the beauty of creation.

Equality is equality. Keeping women out of the highest governing body is straight out predjudice and inequality.

Please supply passages from the Writings that place Women in 'Traditional Rolls', or maybe you see men as giving birth and having the ability to feed the baby?

Since when should being able to produce babies lock women into household servitude?

O maid-servants of the Merciful! It is incumbent upon you to train the children from their earliest babyhood! It is incumbent upon you to beautify their morals! It is incumbent upon you to attend to them under all aspects and circumstances, inasmuch as God—glorified and exalted is He! —hath ordained mothers to be the primary trainers of children and infants. This is a great and important affair and a high and exalted position, and it is not allowable to slacken therein at all!1159 `Abdu’l-Bahā, Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas (Bahā’ī Publishing Committee, 1909 edition), p. 606.

O Handmaids of the Self-Sustaining Lord! Exert your efforts so that you may attain the honour and privilege ordained for women. Undoubtedly the greatest glory of women is servitude at His Threshold and submissiveness at His door; it is the possession of a vigilant heart, and praise of the incomparable God; it is heartfelt love towards other handmaids and spotless chastity; it is obedience to and consideration for their husbands and the education and care of their children; and it is tranquillity, and dignity, perseverance in the remembrance of the Lord, and the utmost enkindlement and attraction.1163 Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File, chap. XVI, no. 749.

And as usual in these MAN MADE Patriarchal religions - the husband can have more then one wife and Sc**w the maid.

God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety [He who takes a virgin to serve him it would be permissible for him]1142 Bahā’u’llāh, The Kitābi Aqdas, p. 41.

The writings restrict sex between a Lawfully Married Couple one being a man one being a women. I do not see this as being discrimination, as all those that accept the Message of Baha'u'llah have all the Laws to consider.
If the Message is not accepted, then they are free to do as they please as per the Laws of the country they are resident of.

A Baha'i offers no discrimination in this civil process and would in fact stand by their rights.Why do people look for Descrimination when there is none. All are free to make the choice. If they make the choice there are Laws to consider.

It is definitely discrimination when you hold to old illogical ideas when science tells us people are Gay from the womb. Thus if there is a God - then they are made that way by that God.


As you ask why this is so from and All Knowing God, why would you also not ask as to why civil law descriminate against people that break laws? The answer is thus quite obvious, God is all Knowing and does know what is best for us in each age.

Laws are decided on by the people - and change over time as science and the FACTS kick in.

You are holding to ancient illogical patriarchal ideas, - not actually any God's ideas, - or the baloney would not be in it.

Yes it was Baha'u'llah that gave the Message for this age. All that is good in Humanity is a direct result of that Revelation. All that is still bad is the neglect of that Message. Regards Tony

It is your opinion that Baha'u'llah gave the Message for this age.

I don't believe so. I don't believe a real message from God - for today - would include the discrimination we are trying so hard to rectify.

*
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Obviously there has been a mistake made somewhere, definitely not by Moses but by someone else maybe a recorder, that Baha'u'llah is correcting. If it was Baha'u'llah Who spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush then He would have been fully aware of what Moses originally wrote and the fact He states it was Ismael means that Moses recorded Ishmael in His original Book.

You're changing what is written. If Bahaullah was behind the burning bush, he would be god-not a human with god's attributes but god himself. He would not be a human being. Jesus was not behind the bush and he is said to be god on one hand and divine and not god on the other. Yet, God does speak as if he is behind the bush. The creator is not Bahaullah; so, that doesn't make sense at all.

I don't understand. If you don't believe in the bible as written, you don't believe in the bible?

If you don't believe the message as written from those prophets without future correction, you're not believing what is written but what you have changed. That is not christianity. You're literally doing what the bible spoke against.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Obviously there has been a mistake made somewhere, definitely not by Moses but by someone else maybe a recorder, that Baha'u'llah is correcting. If it was Baha'u'llah Who spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush then He would have been fully aware of what Moses originally wrote and the fact He states it was Ismael means that Moses recorded Ishmael in His original Book.

No there isn't. That is what you as a Baha'i believe.

Abram tossed Hagar and Ishmael out into the desert.

Thus the ONLY son with Abram was Isaac.

Are we supposed to believe Abram ran around the desert and cities trying to find Ishmael so he could sacrifice him instead of the son that was right there at his side?

*
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Firstly, Nature has deemed that males cannot naturally conceive so is Mother Nature discriminating in defining woman's role as a mother?
Hello....
Now...... what has the above question got to do with anything which I mentioned in my post? If you will ask such questions it would really help if you explain their relevence to what I wrote to Ingledsva?

Next, Mother Nature defines a woman's role as a mother and the males as the father not the Baha'i Faith,
Again..... that has nothing to do with women choosing to be politicians, or, say, fighter pilots, or anything else.
How does the fact that women can be mothers affect their life choices?

Thirdly, there are only 9 positions in the Baha'i Faith that women cannot hold. How does this make equality untrue?
Now, please, you go back, copy where I mentioned women in my post, and paste it into your next post to me!
You need to answer my points, surely?

There are more women in leadership and representative roles in the Baha'i Faith than any religion worldwide in a percentage basis because obviously we don't have the population other religions have, not yet.
I could easily focus upon female equality in a Bahai World, but since I DID NOT I won't get involved with your questions about women.
Where did you dig up the idea that I posted about women?

Last of all, the Bahá'í Teachings say that it will be women who will establish universal peace, that woman, by nature, is opposed to war.
OK..... I'm going to paste in the points I made to Ingledsva..... here we go.
Equality for all = both sexes!

sexual partnership and marriage = both sexes!
Laws on voting rights would exclude all non-bahais = both sexes!

Ruling Bahais = at most levels .....both sexes!

See? So, although I would have issues about gender equality in a bahai world........ I never mentioned this. So your view of what I wrote cannot have been objective.

.. .......................women are opposed to war.........
The above comment is prejudiced, utterly prejudiced. Our most warrior-like PM (UK) in the last 60 years has been a WOMAN!

That may not be the reason but it makes sense to me because Baha'is believe in just wars. You can't let a Hitler massacre millions and sit down and talk peace with the guy while he's building an arsenal to take over the world.
Where did I mention this stuff?
OK.... so Bahais in a bahai world would support and control military forces.

In every Civilisation both men and women are important and we must have all options on the table. An all woman House of Justice could possibly tie the House of Justice hands as it would not be able to wage a just war against a cruel dictator.
I never mentioned anything to do with women on the UHJ in my post, so I'm not going there just now. :D

So just as childbirth has been given uniquely to women, the role of protection has been given to men. It balances out in the end because both play a unique but different role essential to the survival of the human race.
Equality doesn't mean sameness. Men and women have equal rights but not equal roles in humanity.
I never mentioned any bahai divisions of the sexes.
But you just have, and you've told the world about how a Bahai Government in a Bahai World would be a military power, and you've told us how any attempts to recover power by any secular movement could be seen as bad.,.. could be described as 'hitler like'............

You did not address one single point that I made to Ingledsva, but just chucked all manner of bad facts about bahai (imo) into the debate.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
They call Humanity back to Chastity, back to the strong foundarion of Unity of Family, which will again assist our progression to the Unity of Humanity.

And how exactly are same-sex couples not a family unit? And Many of them have children.

The collapse of the Family Unit has brought many problems in communities.

...Regards Tony

And Gay people are not the cause of the collapse of the family. Physical abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, molested children, and sc**wing-around are bringing down the family unit.

Probably also has to do with the fact that women can now leave abusive relationships and survive on their own.

*
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
They call Humanity back to Chastity, back to the strong foundarion of Unity of Family, which will again assist our progression to the Unity of Humanity.

The collapse of the Family Unit has brought many problems in communities.
Hello again....
Tony, I have witnessed the Bahai tenets about Chastity and Marriage cause ruin to two Bahai marriages, and one (Gay) individual and since there were only 9 Bahais in the area where I lived that shows a significant claim.
And since Bahai divorce is fairly easy I cannot see how family unity will be particularly more solid in a Bahai World.

There several problems with the Bahai Laws about Chastity and Marriage.

What are you trying to say here? The Baha'i electoral process is seperate from the Civil Process. Please explain what brought you to these conclusions.

Regards Tony

OK...... then let me repeat exactly what I said before,
Laws on voting rights would exclude all non-bahais at all levels.
Which means that IN A BAHAI WORLD with an elected Bahai government, a theocratic power running the Houses of Justice at local, national and universal levels, non bahhais would not have a vote, and would never ever be able to come back to power unless they rebelled, and then the said bahai government could use military intervention to put down any uprisings, claiming that the uprisings were bad-nasty-wicked etc. That's what I am trying to say.

There would not be any opposing political parties in a Bahai World........ they would be gone!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
.
...............hath ordained mothers to be the primary trainers of children and infants.
*

...Oh dear!
More and more young men are qualifying to be specialised infant and junior teachers here in the UK, and in a Bahai World it doesn't look as if they would ever have had the opprtunity to follow their vocations.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There would not be any opposing political parties in a Bahai World........ they would be gone!

I see now you are talking about a distant future. Thank you.

No people apposing each other, sounds great...:), finally maybe we will all be working for the good of each other with quality of discussion.

One can not watch opposition debates, they are worse than children. What a big waste of money is seen each day, as they try to get the better pun against each others personal character for the day.

There several problems with the Bahai Laws about Chastity and Marriage.

I see the trouble is our ability to live morality as it is required.

I have no good track record in this regard, even knowing the laws. In the end I now know the wisdom of those Laws and I am again married to my Baha'i Wife. If we could live those Laws, the other issues would also dissapear.

I guess for many, time will have to show if the Laws of Baha'u'llah are what we need, or if they are not.

Always be well and happy. Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Baha'i claim equality between men and women, - but, - when you read the texts, they still want women in traditional "woman's" roles, - and don't allow a woman at the top of the religious order. That is discrimination, not equality.

It is true that the Baha'i writings advocate the equality of men and women:

Until the reality of equality between man and woman is fully established and attained, the highest social development of mankind is not possible. Even granted that woman is inferior to man in some degree of capacity or accomplishment, this or any other distinction would continue to be productive of discord and trouble. The only remedy is education, opportunity; for equality means equal qualification.
(Abdu'l-Baha - The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings—one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá)

When you say that Baha'is want women in traditional roles, it sounds as if we don't want women in the workforce alongside men as equals. That of course of not true.

And let it be known once more that until woman and man recognize and realize equality, social and political progress here or anywhere will not be possible.
(Abdu'l-Baha - The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

Women have equal rights with men upon earth; in religion and society they are a very important element. As long as women are prevented from attaining their highest possibilities, so long will men be unable to achieve the greatness which might be theirs.
(The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

It is true that traditional roles such as being a mother are seen as being of the utmost importance.

For mothers are the first educators, the first mentors; and truly it is the mothers who determine the happiness, the future greatness, the courteous ways and learning and judgement, the understanding and the faith of their little ones.
Selections from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha

Does that limit women's role to the home? No.

This by no means implies that these functions are inflexibly fixed and cannot be changed and adjusted to suit particular family situations, nor does it mean that the place of the woman is confined to the home. Rather, while primary responsibility is assigned, it is anticipated that fathers would play a significant role in the education of the children and women could also be breadwinners. As you rightly indicated, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá encouraged women to ‘participate fully and equally in the affairs of the world’.
(Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 626)


In fact women should be taking their place alongside men in all fields of human endeavour

In the Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavor, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1980 Dec 28, The Relationship Between Husband and Wife)


It is true that women do not serve on just one administrative body in the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice. However there is excellent representation of women on our local and National Assemblies as well as the institution of the counsellors. There are about 20,000 assemblies throughout the world in most countries.

I my locality where there is a community of about 40 Baha'is our local assembly has six women and three men. We have extremely capable and talented women in many spheres of the community.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
...Oh dear!
More and more young men are qualifying to be specialised infant and junior teachers here in the UK, and in a Bahai World it doesn't look as if they would ever have had the opprtunity to follow their vocations.

Why? Both are responsible :)

A baby needs its mother, nature has made this to be so and it is science that confirms the longer a mother nurses and bonds with her child, the more balanced the childs life will be and more healthy.

In the end this will unfold how it should. Those that choose the path can try to implement the required life.

Stay happy, regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I my locality where there is a community of about 40 Baha'is our local assembly has six women and three men. We have extremely capable and talented women in many spheres of the community.

Well done to your community, it made me very happy to hear this.

Wish all well for me please.

Allah'u'abha and regards Tony
 
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