How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

What's with Australians and New Zealanders when they first get out of bed. Do you guys all have poor sleep, and jump on the forums before breakfast, having gotten up on the wrong side of bed. I noticed this in Tony too. Far less negative by the afternoon. Have some coffee, go for a walk, before you come on the forums all scolding and depressed.

I tend to start posting later in the day if I have time.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Nowhere near Flowery enough, and not enough Capital Letters. Not even a passing grade. Oceans of Lotus Filled Greatness await You if one but had the Glorious Sight of the Dearest Highest Wonder and Most Awesomest Splendour that is the Returning Saint of Ancient Persia.

I think you have been spending too long on RF and this thread is beginning to get under your skin.

 

[oldbadger]

I think the Jews will be a no show, don't you?

I don't know.....
Both tghose names will take part in Christian subject matter, and this thread is about 'Great Beings', so....... I'll wait on....

 

[oldbadger]

Ah, mother nature yes. From dust we came, and to dust we will return.

Yes........ and what's so bad about that?
Everything we have been, are or will be is within that dust. And I wonder what that dust was doing over the billions of years before even that?
Obviously some particles were within either very very large stars or Super Novas for Carbon atoms to be produced. You've got bits of star-dust in you!

 

[Sen McGlinn]

if Bahaullah's knowledge is identical with God as He said,

You have misread the text I think. What you quoted was :

and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.

The meaning is not that Baha'u'llah's knowledge of the world and its history is identical to God's knowledge of the same, but rather that God, the unknowable, has decreed that our knowing (recognizing and loving, not just "knowing about") the Manifestation of God is -- in God's eyes -- identical to our knowing/recognizing/loving God.

It's just a grammatical ambiguity in English: the knowledge of Peter can be either what Peter knows or what we know about Peter. But the phrase"identical with the knowledge of His own Self" shows that it is "what we know about Peter" in this case.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think with any faith it is relatively easy to get the short story but to really understand it in depth takes much longer. I don't think you have a sound knowledge of the Abrahmic faiths at all, but I don't expect you to either.

I absolutely know I know nothing. My first 2 or 3 adventures into Abrahamism were so offputting I stopped looking at all. When the very basic tenets makes no sense to me, why continue?

Perhaps not, but a disprotionately high number of people I see who abuse drugs, have involvement with the criminal justice system, or have no direction or meaning in their life have no faith.

I've see it both ways

I think the Christians are basically sincere. They genuinely belief that we are all heading for hell and they want to correct us by reminding us that our religions are false and only through Jeus can we be saved.
There are fundamental errors in their brief presentation of the Baha'i Faith. Are you sure you understand the Baha'i Faith?

As there are fundamental errors in Baha'i presentations about other religions. Besides, this was just one evangelical church's response. There are hundreds, and I'm sure many do a better job.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think you have been spending too long on RF and this thread is beginning to get under your skin.

Not at all. It's fun. Unlike you, who has to work, I'm retired so have more time. It seems to me it's most of the Baha'is squirming here. But like any good debate, one side squirms. None of the non-Baha'is have left in anger ... yet.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the twentieth century.

Certainly this seems very important to Baha'is as it's brought up a lot. I personally don't believe it, yet understand why struggling groups would want to make it seem that way, especially for their own followers to retain confidence in the movement. But it has no basis in fact at all, is another perpetrated myth. Of course if you're Baha'i, you have to believe it, because your leaders say it is so. But non-Baha'i are free to look at facts

Here are some other examples. Note that most of them don't put emphasis on declaring themselves a new religion, emphasis is on deeds usually. Less emphasis generally on the leader too, and far less emphasis on spreading their personal faith, or way.

Swaminarayan BAPS ... Many mainstream Hindus consider them as non-Hindu, a radical offshoot. (Most of the Indian groups I will mention parallel Baha'is relationship to Islam, roots in Hinduism, but openly declare themselves non-Hindu) Some sources say 88 million followers, (that's very debatable, but it's higher than Baha'i almost for sure) started around the turn of the last century, amazing charity work, lots of awards and recognition, hold 33 billion in assets.

Satya Sai organisation - in 130 countries, lots of charity, 1200 centers , claim over 10 million followers, decidedly universalist, started about 50 years ago.

Brahma Kumaris - in 110 countries, UN consulting status, 3 million + membership, openly non-Hindu

ISHA Foundation - 5 million volunteers, started 1992, universalist, tons of charity work, founded in 1992

Amritavarshan - founded 40 years ago, in 191 countries, tons of charity, and recognition by UN, and others. Universalist

Amaddiya Muslim ... like Baha'i, considered non Muslim by much of mainstream Islam, 15 million followers world wide.

Besides all this, the Baha'i faith may not even be growing at all. It's really hard to tell. Some non-Baha'i' or ex-Baha'i claim it's shrinking, Baha'i' say it's slowly growing. Obviously they would say that, it's an agenda. Non-Baha'i have no agenda. Ex-Baha'i may have an agenda. (By agenda, I mean a reason to distort things)

None of the organisations I mentioned, as far as I know, go around boasting about their growth, although some individuals surely would.

Not mentioning religions, some individuals have had a huge impact on the world than entire religions. Deepak Chopra in giving basic mental training comes to mind, and certainly individual plhilanthropy like Bill Gates do more charity.

So decide for yourself.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can't recall all the details but I believe Miller had several stabs at the date and the most widely anticipated was not actually a date but a year - March 22, 1843 to March 22, 1844 (or something like that) which is why we sometimes see both years cited. When March 1844 came and went without incident, it was changed again to October 1844 and when that passed the Millerites dissolved into various other Adventist sects that adopted different methods of calculation or satisfied themselves with a general "it is imminent but we don't know the exact date" approach - presumably in order to avoid further great disappointment. I have no idea who first came up with the 1260AH date from the Muslim calendar - I suspect that might even have predated the Babi/Baha'i religions but I'm not sure. It definitely was cited in the excerpt I just quoted from Kheiralla's 1900 book about Baha'u'llah but I don't know if that was already a Baha'i teaching before then or not. Its far more likely I think that Abdu'l Baha would have got a date from a Muslim calendar than a Christian one - but there is no question that Baha'i's unabashedly adopted Miller's interpretation and sought to benefit from the Millerite disappointment (see my previous post).

Baha'is use several quotes that mention times, days, and months and make them all referring to the 1260 years. I already forgot how they arrived at the starting point of the Hejira. But one Baha'i makes the mark or number of the beast 666, a year. But since adding 1260 to 666 doesn't work, they still count the 1260 references to the Hejira.

 

[CG Didymus]

Protestant Christians often attribute the beast to the Papal heirachy. Increasingly they are turning their attention to Islam.

As for Miller's calculation, he get got it right the second time.

William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

There is a verse that says that no man knows the hour or the day. Another that says when it happens, it will be obvious... Like lighting flashing. Another says the dead in Christ will rise first then those that are alive will rise and meet Jesus in the air. So there's more to consider then just the date and time prophecies.

 

[oldbadger]

Do keep in mind that the book of revelation does not follow a methodical chronological order.

I don't know how Revs made it into the bible.
If that was published now I think most critics would write it off as the product of an hallucinating junkie.
But, hey, work it......... work it......!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In which century did the first and second world wars take place then? I'm really not following your reasoning here at all.

I mean war between Kingdoms ended by world war 1, which was not much after end of 19th century (i.e. early 20th century).

Now let us look at that Prophecy in Matthew 24 again:

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand


So, here Jesus is making a connection with the 2300 Days (or years) Prophecy of Daniel, which if counted from 457BC, it comes to 1844 AD.

So, the timeline matches. What I meant is, if we go by what Bible says, this Prophecy must have already been fulfilled. You know why? Because there is no more Kingdom against Kingdom.

 

[oldbadger]

Perhaps not, but a disprotionately high number of people I see who abuse drugs, have involvement with the criminal justice system, or have no direction or meaning in their life have no faith.

The % of 'non-religious' citizens in NZ in 2013 was 42% with a further 4% undeclared.
I expect that middle-class criminals in NZ, as in the UK, remain (for the most part) obscured within the system.

Those who have nothing can opt out into the 'other worlds' offered by drugs.

So it's a distorted pic to compare non-believers with social probs.

 

[oldbadger]

I think the Jews will be a no show, don't you?

I've been thinking about this, and seem to remember that I have asked about Pharisees before, and not heard any strong responses.

The gospels bang on about the Pharisees but I feel sure that both the Baptist's and Yeshua's issues were with the official priesthood.

Pharisees could have influence, but only had official powers if they were also Levites in lower positions or Levites in the priesthood.

I have never heard a clear description or explanation of or about Pharisees, and don't expect to get one after all this time on RF.

 

[CG Didymus]

On the side, back in the day you would have been aware that Bahais do not believe that evil exists, there is no action or thing that is Evil. Corrrect?

So why, I wonder, why did God flood the world? Oh yes, that's a symbolic flooding of symbolic people symbolically doing evil. So then what is real about the Bible?

 

[oldbadger]

Not at all. It's fun. Unlike you, who has to work, I'm retired so have more time. It seems to me it's most of the Baha'is squirming here. But like any good debate, one side squirms. None of the non-Baha'is have left in anger ... yet.

Snap! Retired.
Although this thread was initiated by a Bahai, I am sad that Christians didn't enter in with more numbers to compare and debate their perceptions of who Jesus' was and what his message was. Variation is significant amongst the 3000+ Creeds.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'is use several quotes that mention times, days, and months and make them all referring to the 1260 years. I already forgot how they arrived at the starting point of the Hejira. But one Baha'i makes the mark or number of the beast 666, a year. But since adding 1260 to 666 doesn't work, they still count the 1260 references to the Hejira.

Numerology just seems to be their fetish. And 'spiritualism'.

An RF member once explained that 666 is not the number of the beast, but something like 626............ I wonder if anybody knows more about that?

 

[oldbadger]

Certainly this seems very important to Baha'is as it's brought up a lot. I personally don't believe it, yet understand why struggling groups would want to make it seem that way, especially for their own followers to retain confidence in the movement. But it has no basis in fact at all, is another perpetrated myth. .....................

How right you are!
Bahais in Kent, England have crashed over 30 years, whereas JWs have increased so fast that they have had to split up their town congregations twice and three times so as to fit all into their Halls on a Sunday.
The new JW UK HQ building site is so big that the refectory has to seat 600 volunteer workers a time in two sittings for lunch each day. (Chelmsford, UK)

 

[Vinayaka]

How right you are!
Bahais in Kent, England have crashed over 30 years, whereas JWs have increased so fast that they have had to split up their town congregations twice and three times so as to fit all into their Halls on a Sunday.
The new JW UK HQ building site is so big that the refectory has to seat 600 volunteer workers a time in two sittings for lunch each day. (Chelmsford, UK)

I don't know what that says about society. Of the two, I certainly prefer the former. JW is crashing here though. You people from the old country!

 

[oldbadger]

I mean war between Kingdoms ended by world war 1, which was not much after end of 19th century (i.e. early 20th century)................................

You mentioned WWI............
Now, since you mentioned it, and since the Western Allies were in conflict with the Turks in Palestine, and since Abdul Baha somehow 'spirited' unbelievable amounts of wealth and possessions, later being rewarded by the British Government for his 'assistance and services', would you like to enlarge upon this?