How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Let me explain it to you, Adrian. I am an 'advaitist', i.e., a non-believer in duality, that is a valid and a popular part of Hinduism. That precludes my accepting anything like God or Goddess, because that will constitute acceptance of something different. That also makes me a strong atheist.

We believe in existence of 'one entity' (and not one being, i.e., God), which we designate as Brahman. And we believe that this entity constitute all things in the universe. We do not define Brahman and do not claim to understand Brahman completely.

I equate Brahman to 'physical energy', because that is what the universe started with at the time of Big-Bang. All things in the universe, perceived or unperceived are none other than this 'physical energy'. Our scriptures say this over and over again. For example, they say "Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma" (All things here are Brahman), "Eko sad, Dwiteeyo nasti" (What exists is one, there is no second) or "Aham Brahmasmi" (I am Brahman).

For me, Adrian, even you are none other than Brahman. Even Bahaullah irrespective of what trash he says is none other than Brahman, just like I too am. Even the most pious or the most devilish too are none other than Brahman. Therefore, Krishna too is none other than Brahman. I do not transgress my belief in saying that. Whatever exists, has existed or will exist, in reality or even in imagination, is none other than Brahman only.

Vinayaka names his Brahman as Shiva*. He believes that he can achieve this status not so easily, but in stages, with great devotion and piousness. That is where he differs from me. He does not start with an apriori belief that he is Brahman, but he has the potentiality to achieve the status of no difference with his perseverance. This is what I think of his approach, I may not be wholly correct about this.

* Shiva: gracious, benign, kind, friendly, in whom all things lie, auspicious, propitious, favorable, benevolent, dear, happy, fortunate, liberation, final emancipation (That is sort of anthropomorphization of Brahman).
(Meanings taken from Sanskrit dictionaries at Spokensanskrit.org and Monier-Williams)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs. What you say makes sense and there are no suprises really.

Why the antipathy towards Abrahamic religions? Is that feeling extended to those who are not Hindu?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Greatest Being is simplicity itself.

Agree to all that you said except the spelling of 'Brahman'. 'Brahmin' is the priestly caste, not what equates to your deity. But as an atheist, I cannot have a deity.

Why the antipathy towards Abrahamic religions? Is that feeling extended to those who are not Hindu?

No it does not extend to all religions, but only to predator religions (Christians, Islam, Mormons, Bahais and Ahmadiyyas). Some are big predators, some are small predators. They all want to us to see 'the Emperor's new clothes'.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Religion is dependant on culture. Manifestations is one belief not many religions/cultures share.

The sacraments of christ are baptism, repentence, commuion, and confirmation. Jesus and john was baptized. They all told peolle to repent to gain gods forgiveness. They ate together with christ at his supper. They told people "whoever says out their mouth jesus is lord...."

The sacraments are there. They arent patented by The Church. The OT has all but one, confirmation.

It means sacred inititation acts (of christ). The disciples lived the sacraments. Hindu the same. I watched a Hindu video earlier and Hinudism isnt the appropriate name for the religion. Its Sanatana Dharma. Probably many Hindu havent heard Hinduism applied to that faith to almost recently. It wasnt heard of until they were called that from the Persians. It wasnt even the name Hindu, as so reading, they called them Sindu. Its also because of communication barriers.

Krishna cant ideally become a christian. Krishna is god.

Yes I agree there. I could never know what it is like to be a practising member of any religion I have not practiced.

But traditions and practices handed down through the ages are not experienced by the first followers.

For instance the disciples of Christ believed in what? They had no practices or sacraments or even a Bible? So if they could be true believers without any Christian customs, traditions or practices then that opens the door for other people to do likewise and it is this the Baha’is claimed to have done.

Many of us were not brought up as Christians but that does not mean we cannot become true believers in Christ as the early disciples were. The same goes for Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna and so on.

The Quran took 23 years to reveal compile yet Muslims lived and gave their lives for Islam before the Quran existed.

Belief in a religion is dependent solely upon the Manifestation. We can all believe and accept every Manifestation.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have never heard you trying to prove the existence of God. Why would you? You are an atheist and that's fine.

Aup isn't a Vaishnavite so its not his belief, nor is @Vinayaka . It makes no sense for either of them to be trying to prove Krishna is God, when neither of them believe this to be true.

But it does make sense to stick up for fellow Hindus, when misinformation is spread about them, or other folks change the teachings to suit their own agenda. I would stick up for the Baha'i in the same way if someone said you guys were behind ISIS.

 

[Vinayaka]

Which prophecy failed? I am not aware of even one single failed prophecy. Both Prophecies of Messiah of Jews and Return of Christ are all fulfilled.

What???? There have been just so many 'end of the world' prophecies that have failed. There was one poor chap on here a few years back. After the reckoning day passed without incident he never returned. Probably thousands of end times prophecies have failed. What is amazing is that when a single prophecy hasn't worked, thousands have failed, people still continue. This is why I don't personally believe in prophecy at all.

Most, if not all of the Baha'i predictions about growth, etc. have filed miserably. The 7 year plan gets replaced by the 10 year plan, then the 11 year plan. If the messiah ever did come, and he/she won't, we'd all know it ... totally. God is surely more powerful than putting the entire bet to one man's bragging.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh dear. oh dear! Are you serious?

I just shook my head too. It is really hard to believe that anyone would say all prophecies have been accomplished. What???? It's more likely that Donald Trump is the new Messiah than most of that stuff.

Get over it, people. The future cannot be predicted.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think it was more a case of neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah talking to Christians. They associated mostly with Muslims. Muslims generally believed the gospels to be corrupted so why would Baha'u'llah refer to such a specific prophecy? Instead He emphasised the gospels were authentic and referred to symbolic verses that could be more readily understood by Persians.

It was Abdu'l-Baha who starting talking at length to Christians around the turn of the twentieth century. Only then did he discuss prophecies in detail.

Funny how prophecies always work much better after the fact. It's like at the Roulette table after it's 35, and the guy says, 'I just knew it was going to be 35'. You can be right every single time ... after the fact. 'Oh yeah, that's exactly what we were saying all along." Frankly, from a logical perspective, it's totally laughable.

 

[Vinayaka]

There's more than just prophecies about dates. There's things supposed to happen also. Things like there will be wars and rumors of wars, but that is not yet the end... And, they will beat their swords into plowshares. Hasn't happened. So are the dates wrong or the things that are supposed to happen wrong? Of course Baha'is make the things have a different meaning.

I just knew you were going to say this.

 

[Vinayaka]

And what proof the manfiestation has for his authenticity? Just because he says so? Bahaullah did not even walk over water or turned water into wine. Did he?

It's the only 'proof'. I'm infallible because I said I was infallible, and an infallible person wouldn't lie because he's infallible.

Tons of our Hindu saints performed far more miracles, but we don't go bragging all about it, so nobody knows.

 

[Vinayaka]

Belief in a religion is dependent solely upon the Manifestation. We can all believe and accept every Manifestation.

Just plainly false. I (and many others) believe in a religion, but no manifestation. Unless of course you consider all of us as not believing in any religion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindu the same. I watched a Hindu video earlier and Hinduism isn't the appropriate name for the religion. Its Sanatana Dharma. Probably many Hindu haven't heard Hinduism applied to that faith to almost recently. It wasn't heard of until they were called that from the Persians. It wasn't even the name Hindu, as so reading, they called them Sindu.

Don't believe on what just a video says. Hindus are perfectly satisfied in being called 'Hindus'. And that name is thousands of years old. Zoroastrian books mention what we term a 'Sapta Sindhu' (the land of seven rivers) as 'Hapta-Hendu'. It is only one sect and some chauvinist Hindus who are enamored of the name Sanatna.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What???? There have been just so many 'end of the world' prophecies that have failed. There was one poor chap on here a few years back. After the reckoning day passed without incident he never returned. Probably thousands of end times prophecies have failed. What is amazing is that when a single prophecy hasn't worked, thousands have failed, people still continue. This is why I don't personally believe in prophecy at all.

Most, if not all of the Baha'i predictions about growth, etc. have filed miserably. The 7 year plan gets replaced by the 10 year plan, then the 11 year plan. If the messiah ever did come, and he/she won't, we'd all know it ... totally. God is surely more powerful than putting the entire bet to one man's bragging.

You need to quote a Prophecy from the Authentic Holy Books, and show it was failed.

 

[Vinayaka]

You need to quote a Prophecy from the Authentic Holy Books, and show it was failed.

You said there wasn't a single prophecy that had failed. You need to quote just one, and show how it has been true, without making things up after the fact, or reinterpreting stuff.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.But Bahaullah did read the books of Jews, Christians and Muslims to answer their questions. He himself said that. As if the books of this kind are of any value. He added 17,000 of his own.

According to history, Bahaullah did not go to any school. He did not read the books that people read to learn religions. Bahaullah was imprisoned and exiled from Persia, travelling to Iraq by feet. He did not carry any books with him, as He was an exile directly from prison. All His woks according to His companions and amanuensis were written directly from His mind, without pausing to think what to write, as a Revelation, and without having any books around Him to search for information, yet no one could really prove one error in them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You need to quote a Prophecy from the Authentic Holy Books, and show it was failed.

You never beard of biblical scriptures predicting castraphies of the end of the world? Everything from floods to comets?

In 1999 I remember here in America people flocked the stores buying can goods thinking the world would end in 2000. On t.v. they talked about bomb shelters etc. Of course we are still here. A lot of prophecies failed And that does mean they lost its value. If its symbplic, why ask for proof unless youre not from the states? The east coast was fanatic.

Matthew 24:6

"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end

Here is a vague verse. Takin one way you can say the failing predictions, if one likes, where correcf because we have seen wars yet the world has not ended.

People interpret and accept interpretations in so many ways.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You said there wasn't a single prophecy that had failed. You need to quote just one, and show how it has been true, without making things up after the fact, or reinterpreting stuff.

I have quoted many times, and showed the Prophecies were fulfilled.
If you say they did not, show one that did not. There are thousands of Prophecies in Islam regarding the Qaim, the Mahdi and return of Christ. There are several hundred prophecies in Bible. Just show one did not fulfil. Why not taking the challenge?

I am not also sure what you mean by reinterpretation?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You never beard of biblical scriptures predicting castraphies of the end of the world? Everything from floods to comets?

In 1999 I remember here in America people flocked the stores buying can goods thinking the world would end in 2000. On t.v. they talked about bomb shelters etc. Of course we are still here. A lot of prophecies failed And that does mean they lost its value. If its symbplic, why ask for proof unless youre not from the states? The east coast was fanatic.

Matthew 24:6

"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end

Here is a vague verse. Takin one way you can say the failing predictions, if one likes, where correcf because we have seen wars yet the world has not ended.

People interpret and accept interpretations in so many ways.

That period is past. If you quote completely, it say " nations against nations, kingdom against kingdom".
The period that there were kingdoms are passed. Most of the Kingdoms lived till late 19th or early 20th century. That prophecy is compatible with first world war. The rumors of war, were Around the same time Bahaullah as Bahaullah lived.


Here is a prophecy from Zorasterism which is not vague:

"When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian [Most probably Islam and the Coming of Muhammed] and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a Prophet." - ZOROASTER - Dinkird

Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant

Does not Bahaullah fit the description?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That period is past. If you quote completely, it say " nations against nations, kingdom against kingdom".
The period that there were kingdoms are passed. Most of the Kingdoms lived till late 19th or early 20th century. That prophecy is compatible with first world war. The rumors of war, were Around the same time Bahaullah as Bahaullah lived.


Here is a prophecy from Zorasterism which is not vague:

"When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian [Most probably Islam and the Coming of Muhammed] and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a Prophet." - ZOROASTER - Dinkird

Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant

Does not Bahaullah fit the description?

That is vague just aa saying moses talked with bahaullah behind the bush. In the 90s people didnt think it vague because it was backed up by other natural events that back then would be attributed to god. Almost thirty years ago they attributed seizures to holy spirit and still do!

Believers attribute the past to the present. Its alright with wordy thingz but spiritual, that I dont get.

 

[Aupmanyav]

According to history, Bahaullah did not go to any school. He did not read the books that people read to learn religions.

Who wrote this history and why should I believe it? Bahaullah was 35 year old when he was imprisoned (Born 1817, imprisoned 1852). Seems he had enough money to sustain his family, his first wife also was from a noble family. I am not told of him having any kind of employment. Enough time for him to read Qur'an and Bible and have many children (14, they said). Bab too had declared himself as a manifestation. Bahaullah usurped Bab's position after his death.

I read this from Saoshyant in Wikipedia (Denkard 7.10.15ff): "Thirty years before the decisive final battle, a maiden named Eredat-fedhri ("Victorious Helper") and whose nickname is "Body-maker" will enter a lake (in Yasht 19.92, this is "Lake Kansava"). Sitting in the water, the girl, who has "not associated with men" will receive "victorious knowledge." Her son, when born, will not know nourishment from his mother, his body will be sun-like, and the "royal glory" of the Khvarenah will be with him. Then, for the next 57 years he will subsist on only vegetables (17 years), then only water (30 years) and then for the final 10 years only on "spiritual food." "
Saoshyant - Wikipedia

So Bhaullah also was the son of a woman who had not associated with men? Did Bahaullah subsist only on vegetables for 57 years and the next 30 years only on water? And in the last 10 years, he would not even have water? That makes 97 years in all. But Bahaullah lived only for 74 years. Surely, he was not the 'Saoshyant that Zoroaster meant. Further there was no war in Middle-East in 1847 (30 years after the birth of supposed Saoshyant, Bahaullah). All made up, not even a kernel of truth. Only those who have some benefit by these stories tell them.

Change your nick, 'Investigate Truth', you are not doing that. It should be 'Believe in Falsehood'.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who wrote this history and why should I believe it? Bahaullah was 35 year old when he was imprisoned (Born 1917, imprisoned 1852). Seems he had enough money to sustain his family, his first wife also was from a noble family. I am not told of him having any kind of employment. Enough time for him to read Qur'an and Bible and have many children.

The history of Baha'i Faith was written by three groups. One group were enemies, trying to refute Bahaullah. Another group were companions of Bahaullah. Another group were not enemies, but they were not believers either, such as Edward Brawn. You are more than welcome to read then all, and show if there is any verifiable evidences to refute Bahaullah's claim.
History does not work like that. How do we know Hitler existed? Who wrote the History? Maybe they made it up? Maybe that picture of Hitler is an invention? I think you need to learn about historical methods. It is not like, you had to be around Bahaullah 24 hours, seven days of week to know if He studied or not. Bahaullah was from a noble family. These families were not interested to learn about details of Religions, as in those days, there was another class for clergy people. The details knowledge of Bahaullah of Traditions is exceptional. Even those clergy in His time, who were known for their learning could not be compared with Him. Many of His followers were Muslim clergy who converted. Some of His followers were His close families, such as brothers. Obviously if Bahaullah had studied religions, these close families would have known. Then why the still believed Him when He claimed to not have any education? Bahaullah had many enemies, and still Bahai Faith has many enemies. Many of them are Muslim Ulama. Surely they tried to refute Bahaullah's claim. Surely they could have found evidences that He had studied books. You do not seem to know, they have written thousands books or articles to refute Him. Did they find any evidence?

By the way, you have a typo. Bahaullah was born in 1817. You are correct He was imprisoned in 1852. But even before that He was asked to leave Persia for about a year or so to Iraq. This was prior to His imprisonment.