How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you understand Baha'ispeak?

Siti was giving top end sarcasm.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I actually agree with quite a lot of what you have said in regards to the lead up to the crucifixion.

We have some important points of disagreement though.

What? Jesus wanted the old laws and rules to be returned, and kept, because the priesthood had gone 'Greek'! Hence a return of the Israelite God's Kingdom.
Sure, he hated the Roman occupation, but he despised the priesthood much more because the priests were 'quislings'.

I don't believe for one minute that Jesus wanted to continue with the old laws and traditions. I suppose you can argue that if you remove the books of the NT that clearly refute this view.

Jesus counselled His disciples to avoid conflict with either the Priests or Romans. He was much more concerned with bringing new teachings that would save His followers both in this world and the next.

Might? There was a riot, Jesus Son-of-the-Father (Yeshua BaAbba) started it and lives were lost during it. He got arrested, tried and convicted for it.

That's another major departure from the narrative we have all grown up. Do you have any evidence to support it?

 

[siti]

The coming of a new world was also prophesied to happen by Return of Christ:
I quote Revelation 21:

1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’b or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”



In Baha'i View this Prophecy was fulfilled by God through Manifesting Bahaullah:

"Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a newone spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen."

"Erelong shall We bring into being through thee exponents of new and wondrous sciences, of potent and effective crafts, and shall make manifest through them that which the heart of none of Our servants hath yet conceived. Thus do We bestow upon whom We will whatsoever We desire, and thus do We withdraw from whom We will what We had once bestowed. Even so do We ordain whatsoever We please through Our behest."


"THE world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed."

More obfuscation. But again you are just underlining my point - you are taking the Christian tradition of failed messianic claims (Christianity is remarkably good at failed messianic claims) and turning it into a victory for the Baha'i faith by claiming that it is your 'messiah' (and not theirs) that fulfilled the prophecies. Mind you, the Christians can hardly complain about that can they? After all, they benefited from the failed messianic expectations of Judaism. What goes around comes around I suppose.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

More obfuscation. But again you are just underlining my point - you are taking the Christian tradition of failed messianic claims (Christianity is remarkably good at failed messianic claims) and turning it into a victory for the Baha'i faith by claiming that it is your 'messiah' (and not theirs) that fulfilled the prophecies. Mind you, the Christians can hardly complain about that can they? After all, they benefited from the failed messianic expectations of Judaism. What goes around comes around I suppose.

Which prophecy failed? I am not aware of even one single failed prophecy. Both Prophecies of Messiah of Jews and Return of Christ are all fulfilled.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So, back to my original point. God is real and literal to you. Why would things like the Eucharist be symbolic for others just because it's symbolic to you? Why discredit someone else's belief in god/christ as symbolism while you believe something that is real?

The term Eucharist is used in Catholicism for the communion. Communion for me is becoming part of the Body of Christ (His Faithful followers) and affirming the new Covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31)

When have I discredited someones else belief in God other than having an opinion that is different? We are all free to our beliefs.

 

[Dawnofhope]

More obfuscation. But again you are just underlining my point - you are taking the Christian tradition of failed messianic claims (Christianity is remarkably good at failed messianic claims) and turning it into a victory for the Baha'i faith by claiming that it is your 'messiah' (and not theirs) that fulfilled the prophecies. Mind you, the Christians can hardly complain about that can they? After all, they benefited from the failed messianic expectations of Judaism. What goes around comes around I suppose.

The JWs have quite a story around Daniel and Revelation. The seven headed, ten horned beast being the United Nations. God's kingdom getting established in heaven, not earth, during 1914 when WWI broke out instead.

They weren't too far off with Daniel 9:24-27 though in regards to Christ. Then again, that was in hindsight.

So Christ wasn't the Messiah after all and its just delusions?

 

[siti]

I am not aware of even one single failed prophecy.

Oh dear. oh dear! Are you serious? From Hilary of Poitiers and Pope Sylvester to Harold Camping and Pat Robertson Christians have an unassailable record of failed prophecies - hundreds and hundreds of them. Here is a list:
List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia

Both Prophecies of Messiah of Jews and Return of Christ are all fulfilled.

Of course they are - we wouldn't want them being fulfilled after their 'Manifestorial' successors had become manifested would we?

 

[CG Didymus]

Some Hindus.

Has Adrian seen pictures of Krishna? He's blue. And I've heard it said that once you go blue, no other manifestation will do.

 

[siti]

The JWs have quite a story around Daniel and Revelation. The seven headed, ten horned beast being the United Nations. God's kingdom getting established in heaven, not earth, during 1914 when WWI broke out instead.

They weren't too far off with Daniel 9:24-27 though in regards to Christ. Then again, that was in hindsight.

So Christ wasn't the Messiah after all and its just delusions?

No, no - of course not! And you mustn't say that...tsk tsk! And you're right about the JWs - that is quite a story - ridiculous really when it is so perfectly obvious that Daniel and Revelation were really referring to a couple of illiterate Persians in 1844! How could anyone be so blind as not to see that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, no - of course not! And you mustn't say that...tsk tsk! And you're right about the JWs - that is quite a story - ridiculous really when it is so perfectly obvious that Daniel and Revelation were really referring to a couple of illiterate Persians in 1844! How could anyone be so blind as not to see that?

Of course, its all obvious in hindsight.

It would have been a little more difficult in 1844 trying to make sense of it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The term Eucharist is used in Catholicism for the communion. Communion for me is becoming part of the Body of Christ (His Faithful followers) and affirming the new Covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31)

When have I discredited someones else belief in God other than having an opinion that is different? We are all free to our beliefs.

Like I say. Im 100% Roman Catholic. The Eucharist is more than a communion. One can receive communion at any Church. The Church has the actual body and blood of christ. Its very different (and protestants will say so agressively) very different than a union of like believers.

I had to back track 11 posts since I dont like being derailed with questions as answers to another question.

So if you can prove to me Krishna is God incarnate I'd love to hear it. Of course you can't, because you don't believe it yourself.

Hindu belief is different. Why ask him Aup. to prove something that its very existance is not written on paper.

I mean, if you want to learn about Hinduism and accept their view of god, theyd be most happy. Challemging the validity of their god/experience for whats written on paper is putting their god's incarnation through the criteria of validation of your faith.

Why not go off their criteria and learn from it?

Thats what I mean by discredit.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not conversion, it is only ever an offer of advice, that we all get to consider.

It is like the calm before the storm in your boat.

We are all on the same sea and the big storm is coming, a storm of a magnitude never before wirnessed. Some boats are small, some Large, some very old, some new. Some no navigation, some old navigation that can not be used in the storm and some with modern navagation.

A safe port has been given, so each has His choice. Face the storm alone or assist each other to secure anchorage in the safe port.

Some feel and see the calm unaware of the pending storm and laugh off the advice of a safe port. Some think they have the skills to ride out the storm and so it goes, in the end help comes from ones own decisions in this situation.

In this case the safe Port is the Original Word of the Great Beings, the storm is neglect of and what man has done with that Word and what humanity will now face as a result.

I see great wisdom and great benefit in storms. They are not bad things.

Regads Tony

Jews and Christians believe they have the original Word. When do Baha'is think the Jewish Scriptures and the Christian New Testament were changed?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Like I say. Im 100% Roman Catholic. The Eucharist is more than a communion. One can receive communion at any Church. The Church has the actual body and blood of christ. Its very different (and protestants will say so agressively) very different than a union of like believers.

Are you saying that the church literally has the body and blood of Christ in he Eucharist?

Hindu belief is different. Why ask him Aup. to prove something that its very existance is not written on paper.

I was a little blunt with Aup, especially after he called the Baha'i religion 'Trash'.

I mean, if you want to learn about Hinduism and accept their view of god, theyd be most happy. Challemging the validity of their god/experience for whats written on paper is putting their god's incarnation through the criteria of validation of your faith.

Aup is an avowed atheist. He doesn't believe in God.

Why not go off their criteria and learn from it?

Thats what I mean by discredit.

 

[siti]

Of course, its all obvious in hindsight.

It would have been a little more difficult in 1844 trying to make sense of it.

Charles Taze Russel wasn't even born in 1844 - but I suppose your take on it does explain why neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah managed to include the Daniel 8 math trick and rather depended on Shi'i Islamic Mahdi expectations at the time. Only in hindsight did the Baha'i faith recognize the fortuitous coincidence of failed Christian and Muslim prophecies about the year 1844.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Charles Taze Russel wasn't even born in 1844 - but I suppose your take on it does explain why neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah managed to include the Daniel 8 math trick and rather depended on Shi'i Islamic Mahdi expectations at the time.

I think it was more a case of neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah talking to Christians. They associated mostly with Muslims. Muslims generally believed the gospels to be corrupted so why would Baha'u'llah refer to such a specific prophecy? Instead He emphasised the gospels were authentic and referred to symbolic verses that could be more readily understood by Persians.

It was Abdu'l-Baha who starting talking at length to Christians around the turn of the twentieth century. Only then did he discuss prophecies in detail.

 

[CG Didymus]

And why doesn't the entire Christian world and the entire Islamic world see this the same way as Bahai's do, if it;s so obvious, and they are all so obviously wrong?

There's more than just prophecies about dates. There's things supposed to happen also. Things like there will be wars and rumors of wars, but that is not yet the end... And, they will beat their swords into plowshares. Hasn't happened. So are the dates wrong or the things that are supposed to happen wrong? Of course Baha'is make the things have a different meaning.

 

[CG Didymus]

I find it strange too. I think that is a question for them. They should reply why.

You haven't heard? They are going to be Raptured out of here. The Beast and the Anti-Christ will take over and the world will go through a Great Tribulation. But don't worry... Jesus returns and saves the day and casts the Devil into pit or something.

 

[siti]

I think it was more a case of neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah talking to Christians. They associated mostly with Muslims. Muslims generally believed the gospels to be corrupted so why would Baha'u'llah refer to such a specific prophecy? Instead He emphasised the gospels were authentic and referred to symbolic verses that could be more readily understood by Persians.

It was Abdu'l-Baha who starting talking at length to Christians around the turn of the twentieth century. Only then did he discuss prophecies in detail.

OK - so the Divine Manifestation did not refer to the OT prophecies in Daniel because the Muslims generally believed the Gospels to be corrupted...even though the specific prophecies were specifically about him and the Bab and pinpointed the exact year of the start of the new world order that he was to usher in...and he knew all about his divine commission from a very tender age even before he was able to read...??? Maybe it just slipped his divine mind? So the Bab died not knowing that the very time of his appearance had been prophesied in Hebrew scripture? And Baha'u'llah - for all his miraculously obtained learning - had no clue that the 2300 days of Daniel 8 were referring to the time of his own appearance to 'cleanse the sanctuary'?

 

[Dawnofhope]

OK - so the Divine Manifestation did not refer to the OT prophecies in Daniel because the Muslims generally believed the Gospels to be corrupted...even though the specific prophecies were specifically about him and the Bab and pinpointed the exact year of the start of the new world order that he was to usher in...and he knew all about his divine commission from a very tender age even before he was able to read...??? Maybe it just slipped his divine mind? So the Bab died not knowing that the very time of his appearance had been prophesied in Hebrew scripture? And Baha'u'llah - for all his miraculously obtained learning - had no clue that the 2300 days of Daniel 8 were referring to the time of his own appearance to 'cleanse the sanctuary'?

Heard of the Quran? Why would the Muslims be reading the OT, and why would Baha'u'llah be drawing Muslims attention to it? I think you are being a little too focused on Western culture. Persians were suspicious of the West back then as they are today.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you saying that the church literally has the body and blood of Christ in he Eucharist?

Yep. Sure am. I think we had this somewhat discussion before. I understand why you see it symbolically. I dont see it that way. Im happy to explore my views with you if you like to consider the validity of my views without feeling you have to disregard yours in the process.

I was a little blunt with Aup, especially after he called the Baha'i religion 'Trash'.

Hmm. Im more of a pull back type. I guess that makes sense.

Aup is an avowed atheist. He doesn't believe in God.

He knows more about Hinduism than any person I would think whose not in the culture and/or practice of the Hindu faith. His disbelief in god shouldnt change that. @Aupmanyav I'll let him speak in his own behalf. In general, ones belief in god shouldnt change ones knowledge in faith. My disbelief in a creator doesnt mean I havent experienced christ. Context.