How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

That sounds like a ton of fun. I'll keep it in mind for future travels. But we'd have to do a couple of pit stops at a Hindu temple or two.

No Probs..... I'm up for it.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh, no! We absolutely, positively do NOT worship Joseph Smith. The correct name of our Church is, after all, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- NOT The Church of Joseph Smith.

I understand.
What 'station' would you apply Joseph Smith to? For instance most Christians would give Paul the station of 'Saint' and 'Apostle'.

You're very welcome. It was the most wonderful trip I've taken in my 69 years!

Snap! I'm in my 69th year as well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quite so! I wonder then - was Jesus seriously recommending that faithful disciples would not take the time to mourn departed loved ones just because they were not sufficiently "spiritual" when they were alive?

Not just that. I would think Jesus was more concerned about spreading His religion. He told the disciple not to waste too much time, let's go to teach My religion, and let the dead bury their own dead. But I would think one point of story is to teach the term 'dead' has a literal meaning as well as spiritual meaning in the Scriptures, so that, when Jesus and other Prophets spoke of the Day of Resurrection, people may know, it perhaps means a Day of awakening of spiritually dead. However as you are witness, most people still think, Resurrection of the Dead is physical.

Do Baha'is refuse to attend the funerals of parents or siblings who are not faithful Baha'is? Do faithful Baha'is (not considering themselves to be 'spiritually dead') refuse to conduct or participate in funeral services at all on account of this directive? Or might the point of the story been to have Jesus responding to the excuse of someone who wanted to beg off following the spiritual path until his father had died and he had performed his traditional family duties in regard to the funeral rites...and/or, perhaps received his inheritance...?

No, Bahais do not refuse to bury a dead. Bahaullah had said the dead needs to be buried respectfully. However Bahaullah wrote that instead of wasting your money to go and visit the places of dead ones, use the money to make the world a better place through the ways He has ordained.

In any case, just to make it plain, the scripture he was referring to does not state that the disciple's father was actually physically dead (at least not yet at any rate) - and yet Baha'u'llah writes "...it is written: “And it came to pass that on a certain day the father of one of the disciples of Jesus had died.” " when in fact, no such thing is written.

That is, by any account, either an error or a lie. I can't believe it was Baha'u'llah's deliberate intention to deceive (in this otherwise trivial case) so it must be an error. QED.

It may not have written literally, but obviously his father had died, as he told Jesus to wait until he bury his father.
You do not seem to have read or understood my reply to this in my previous post here:

I already replied to this. It is perfectly fine, and people often say that, a particular story is written in the Bible, and yet they do not mean to quote it. They just give a summary of it, in a way they want to refer to its concept. I don't see why God cannot do that. So, Bahaullah can know the quote precisely, yet He summarizes it in His own way. How do you know that is not the case?

Farther explaining, it is obvious that Bahaullah is using this story specifically and only to remind that in the Scriptures of Bible, the term 'dead' sometimes is not physically dead. I do not see why He should quote word to word the whole story. Thus He has given a brief summary of the beginning of the story, and then He quotes precisely what is written "let the dead bury their dead" .

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Now that would makes sense, because I do get the sense that he is comparing mostly to Islam. The problem is I can't see Moslems worshipping stones because they're dead set against it. Unless of course he was referring to Mecca.

Many of Arabs at the time of Muhammad and before Islam were worshippers of the sun, sea or even clays, and I think Abdulbaha compares the imaginations about Allah to the idolatry in old times, saying when people make an imaginary idol in their own mind about God, that is even worse than idolatry in old times.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many of Arabs at the time of Muhammad and before Islam were worshippers of the sun, sea or even clays, and I think Abdulbaha compares the imaginations about Allah to the idolatry in old times, saying when people make an imaginary idol in their own mind about God, that is even worse than idolatry in old times.

I did a bit more research, and it's pretty clear to me he's talking about Hindus. But since Islam is openly very against idol worship to the point of being angry about it to the point of destroying 100 000 Hindu temples in the early invasions, it's pretty clear where he's getting his ideas.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-Bahai-leader-Abdul-Baha-say-about-Hindus

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you link me to that one, so I can see if he insulted them?

Are you sure you want that as your motive?

This link is an overview and gives a bit of history after the talk as to what happened.

Rabbi Martin Meyer Hosts Abdu’l-Baha at Temple Emanu-El

Press Report,

Baha Devotes Talk to Universal Peace

Press Report that also printed full talk;

Message to the Jews

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You have to step from bahaullauh's writings to "get" what diversity is trying to tell you. Its like you're behimd a closed unlocked door. Diversity is on the other side. You quote and say bahaullah (another person behind the door) has seen the world accepting diversity etc. You go on about this offering truth and knowledge. Then diversity sits back and listens to you offer.

I see that in this day the Bab is the Unlocked Door. I see Humanity on one side to which I am Part of and Baha'u'llah on the Other side tge Light shining through the door. In the past the Door was known by other names and the Light that shone from it, was alao known by other names.

So on the Other side of the door is the Light of God, which is all the Great Beings, all the Holy Souls gone before.

I see no one on this Planet has any understanding unless they open the door and let the Light that is behind that door touch their hearts.

None of it is my Word, it is the light from behind the door and how we see that light depends upon us opening that door.

If we do not, we can only have a human version of what was behind the Door. The Human Version is the Diversity.

I am yet to understand your mind.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I did a bit more research, and it's pretty clear to me he's talking about Hindus. But since Islam is openly very against idol worship to the point of being angry about it to the point of destroying 100 000 Hindu temples in the early invasions, it's pretty clear where he's getting his ideas.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-Bahai-leader-Abdul-Baha-say-about-Hindus

That site is distorting the truth. Do not trust it, i am telling you. Do Hindus worship the Sun or the Sea? If not, then they do not apply to them.

 

[siti]

it is obvious that Bahaullah is using this story specifically and only to remind that in the Scriptures of Bible, the term 'dead' sometimes is not physically dead. I do not see why He should quote word to word the whole story. Thus He has given a brief summary of the beginning of the story, and then He quotes precisely what is written "let the dead bury their dead" .

No he was not giving a summary - and you seem not to have read what Baha'u'llah actually wrote - to wit: "In another passage of the Gospel it is written: “And it came to pass that on a certain day the father of one of the disciples of Jesus had died.” - that is very clearly written as a quote and since there is no such passage in the Gospel - it is a misquote and your wriggling attempts to explain it away are disingenuous. No wonder Baha'is claim the Manifestations were uneducated and barely literate - frankly, I am beginning to suspect this is less about establishing a case for Divine revelation and more about excusing their own inability to read with discernment - that's not meant as an insult - its a candid observation - something you might like to attempt yourself occasionally if you are able.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdul Bahai and S. Effendi would have done their faith a great service it they would have been able to hold back their critical tongues. It's a real turnoff, when simultaneously they're expressing a desire to get along with others.

Baha'u'llah rebuked all the Leaders of His time after they rejected the Most Great Peace. Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi in their talks, also gave the requirements to the audiences of their time. They did this in tune with Baha'u'llahs Message.

The rest is up to us. We must find our Unity.

It is good to know we can live together in our Diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Not just that. I would think Jesus was more concerned about spreading His religion.

No he was not. Jesus was concerned about brininging about the return of the old laws, disgarded by a hellenised priesthood.

............. when Jesus .............. spoke of the Day of Resurrection..............

Jesus never mentioned resurrection.

it is obvious that Bahaullah is using this story specifically and only to remind that in the Scriptures of Bible................

If Bahauallah was guided by God then he would have known the truth about the gospels, that Luke and Matthew were not witnesses (they copied their gospels from others), that John was written 70-80 years after Jesus's arrest and conviction and John had no idea of how to fit his collection of anecdotes together, and that only Mark could have been a partial witness including the memoirs of his mentor, Cephas.

How did Bahauallah not know the real truth of Jesus's mission? He did not even mention Jesus's real name.

 

[Vinayaka]

That site is distorting the truth. Do not trust it, i am telling you. Do Hindus worship the Sun or the Sea? If not, then they do not apply to them.

So I am to trust you?

(Obviously, cause you're not deluded, diseased, blind, or a superstitious stone worshiper like I am.)

In summary, I'll read as much as I can from all sources, and I'll decide who to trust or not.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No he was not giving a summary - and you seem not to have read what Baha'u'llah actually wrote -......

Bahaullah wrote in the same Book, that He wants to be brief. He is not quoting those traditions:

"As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions."

Book of Iqan, Bahaullah

How strange, seems like Bahaullah knew some people may have a problem, thinking He is misquoting. So, He made it clear, He is not quoting. Obviously if anybody wants to see the exact quotes, he can go and read the Bible. What is the point of quoting the whole Text in a new Book by God, when He had previously written that Book?
As far as I am concerned the case is closed.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah rebuked all the Leaders of His time after they rejected the Most Great Peace. Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi in their talks, also gave the requirements to the audiences of their time. They did this in tune with Baha'u'llahs Message.

It's interesting to me that there is very little non-Baha'i' news about those wandering talks. Almost all of the stuff is from Baha'i' sources. So it's really hard to get the other side of the story. One conjecture is that it simple wasn't newsworthy enough to make it to the regular news.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am yet to understand your mind

I know. Ha. The first thing The Buddha said was admit there is a problem. Please reread my whole analogy. It isnt about how Tony sees it. Its about how diversity sees it. Learning how diversity sees differently is a step towards the solution: empathy and unconditional love for those who are not like you. Empathy means stepping into the others shoes. Unconditional love has no restrictions on whose shoes you step into. Empathy and UL doesnt tell you to drop your beliefs. Unless Bahaullah doesnt teach these two things in a diverse world, I dont see how you miss them.

Diversity view

It is like diversity is one the outside of an unlocked closed door. Bahaullah and bahai are on the other side.

Bahai offers words of god. Gives scriptures. Says "we are just like you" See! We believe in diversity.

Diversity sits back and listens patiently. When all the comotion is finished one man from diversity stands up and says

"Okay. We heard you. Do you want to solve this peace problem you guys think we have spiritually?"

"YES!" Says bahai-christian, bahai-hindu, and bahai-muslim in unison.

The Christian, Hindu, and Muslim look at each other as if this were impossible. They look up to their spokesman.

He takes and deep breathe, "OPEN THE COTTON PICKIN' DOOR!"

-

There's a short pause.

On the other side, they heard mumbling and hesitation as if opening the door disappreciates their pride in thinking they know diversity yet its only within their own belief system.

This has nothing to do with god. That is your belief Tony. Its like diversity is telling you we need to fix the problem together but to do so is to figure out what WE think is the problem and the solution WE can think of together.

How is that hard to understand?

Admitting there is a cause and solution doesnt mean you have to agree with the same method of the last noble truth: the method of ending it. To each his Own method. (We can do this by our diverse methods with the same solution/goal, knowing the same cause, and admitting to the same problem)

Just want you to think.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's interesting to me that there is very little non-Baha'i' news about those wandering talks. Almost all of the stuff is from Baha'i' sources. So it's really hard to get the other side of the story. One conjecture is that it simple wasn't newsworthy enough to make it to the regular news.

There were ample news of His talks.

1912 Press Coverage of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá | 'Abdu'l-Bahá in America

There are pages of articles, you can scroll down the bottom through the pages of them.

24 pages 18 Articles to each page.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know. Ha. The first thing The Buddha said was admit there is a problem. Please reread my whole analogy. It isnt about how Tony sees it. Its about how diversity sees it. Learning how diversity sees differently is a step towards the solution: empathy and unconditional love for those who are not like you. Empathy means stepping into the others shoes. Unconditional love has no restrictions on whose shoes you step into. Empathy and UL doesnt tell you to drop your beliefs. Unless Bahaullah doesnt teach these two things in a diverse world, I dont see how you miss them.

Diversity view

It is like diversity is one the outside of an unlocked closed door. Bahaullah and bahai are on the other side.

Bahai offers words of god. Gives scriptures. Says "we are just like you" See! We believe in diversity.

Diversity sits back and listens patiently. When all the comotion is finished one man from diversity stands up and says

"Okay. We heard you. Do you want to solve this peace problem you guys think we have spiritually?"

"YES!" Says bahai-christian, bahai-hindu, and bahai-muslim.

The Christian, Hindu, and Muslim looknst each other as if this were impossible. They look up to their spokesman.

He takes and deep breathe, "OPEN THE COTTON PICKIN' DOOR!"

There's a short pause.

On the other side, they heard mumbling and hesitation as if opening the door disappreciates their pride in thinking they know diversity yet its only within their own belief system.

-

This has nothing to do with god. That is your belief Tony. Its like diversity is telling you we need to fix the problem together but to do so is to figure out what WE think is the problem and the solution WE can think of together.

How is that hard to understand?

Admitting there is a cause and solution doesnt mean you have to agree with the same method of the last noble truth: the method of ending it. To each his Own method. (We can do this by our diverse methods with the same solution/goal, knowing the same cause, and admitting to the same problem)

Just want you to think.

Again I see it has all to do what is on the other side of the door.

I see that Diversity results from Opening the Door, Oneness is on the Other side. Or if you like the origin of all creation.

Why we stay on this side of the door, we will always have Diversity. That is this life. You me all Faiths, no Faiths are all on this side of the door.

What we are being called to, the way I see it, is to understand what is on the other side of the door, while we live in this world of Diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Again I see it has all to do what is on the other side of the door.

I see that Diversity results from Opening the Door, Oneness is on the Other side. Or if you like the origin of all creation.

Why we stay on this side of the door, we will always have Diversity. That is this life. You me all Faiths, no Faiths are all on this side of the door.

What we are being called to, the way I see it, is to understand what is on the other side of the door, while we live in this world of Diversity.

Regards Tony

Again, do you understand diversity's view?

Not bahai-christian and bahai-hindu

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What we are being called to, the way I see it, is to understand what is on the other side of the door, while we live in this world of Diversity.

In my opinion, there is no door.

Do you get diversity's point?

Its not about you. Its about US.

You and me and Hindu Jane and Muslim John. ALL people.

 

[Katzpur]

I understand.
What 'station' would you apply Joseph Smith to? For instance most Christians would give Paul the station of 'Saint' and 'Apostle'.

'Prophet,' like Abraham, Isaiah, or Noah, or perhaps the Apostles Peter.

Snap! I'm in my 69th year as well.

No kidding? Don't you just LOVE retirement? I know it's the best job I've ever had!