The Quran doesn't say what punishment is needed, just that they should be punished. The hadith is where death is the punishment. (Or so I just read.)
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Every so often? I'd say rather regularly.
Why wouldn't they get kicked out? It's clearly going against the teachings. Have any been kicked out?
You can eat whatever you want. It doesn't bother me. That's your business ... what you want to put into your gut.
I meant the same sex marriage promotion.
Who defines whether these should be rights or not to marry a person of the same sex? Governments, society, people? God? Religion?
I don't know to be honest. I think such matters are between them and their own conscience.
It's not a promotion. It's merely people coming to their senses.
Right now governments, in their search for fair treatment, seem to be the ones defining it, and changing archaic laws. Thank goodness for secular governments. In countries where religion plays a key part, there seems to be massive abuse to minorities. The Baha'i's in Iran are an example of that. Still, you're probably safer to be a Baha'i' there than to be gay.
At one time here in Canada Hindu marriages weren't considered legal either. The largely Christian controlled governments used 'not a religion' as a reason not to grant the license to Hindu priests.
Isn't it the UHJ that excommunicates?
I don't recall any since my 40 years as a Baha'i but they are very, very rare.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I hope all Bahai (and I'm being indirect on purpose) understand this. When you do things out of love, your persona changes. You learn stuff. Like over 9,000 posts ago, Lover, I thought your views expressed pretty negatively. "Years" later, as you start putting conversations in your own words, I think some of us see a great change in your personality.
Something in "what I learned" activity I thought about posts back. A lot of people change overtime. It takes patience, compassion, and a huge level of interest and understanding. I'm sure Bahaullah has somewhat of an agreement on this.
But, yeah, if a couple of you were in Virginia, I would not mind meeting up for coffee. I think we earned it. Haha.
I hope all Bahai (and I'm being indirect on purpose) understand this. When you do things out of love, your persona changes. You learn stuff. Like over 9,000 posts ago, Lover, I thought your views expressed pretty negatively. "Years" later, as you start putting conversations in your own words, I think some of us see a great change in your personality.
Something in "what I learned" activity I thought about posts back. A lot of people change overtime. It takes patience, compassion, and a huge level of interest and understanding. I'm sure Bahaullah has somewhat of an agreement on this.
For putting up with me you deserve a medal and to be taken out to dinner!!
It seems to be we're in an age of transition discarding the old and bringing in the new.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Why thank you! I can go for vegetarian as long as it's American food or similar. I don't know why I just thought of a group dinner cruise.
How exquisite!
Yes indeed. But it takes wisdom to know which traditions to retain and which to get rid of. If it's discriminatory or inhumane, I say get rid of it. This remodeling depends a lot on which faith you follow. I'm very much a traditionalist Hindu. Fortunately homophobia or brutal punishing for those who don't conform aren't part of that tradition.
Yes, I think most people would just leave quietly on their own. That seems to be the most common scenario from all the ex-Baha'i' stuff I've read. True for most religions, I think. Why make a big stink when it is very unlikely to change anything? If a gay Baha'i' tried to challenge the UHJ from within, he'd get nowhere, and if he couldn't figure that much out from the beginning, he ain't too smart.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I went to The PRIDE parade in June here in DC. The agenda (hate that word) was to promote equal rights among all people regardless their sexual orientation and sexual identity. Then, during pride day, since I only went to the parade saturday, members of the LGBT community had an issue with police being part of the parade. The debate, from what I understood, is that regardless how they want to help "minorities" they still have views about us that put us at a minority-and call us a minority-level. They don't beat people up in this area far as I know but people have been fired etc.
It wasn't because of their sexual orientation. Most people and religious define homosexuality by action. It was literally the bias and false definitions that made people see others as "minorities" and treat them differently-and still do-as that of the straight crowd.
The irony was that the police who were the ones that beat people at the Riots etc where the same ones that supported, they say, the gay community.
How can you support a person to whom you have no respect for who he is and how he identifies as a person?
You can look it up on google, if you're interested. However, I always wondered why religious-say Catholic-have programs and say they support the LGBT community when underneath the support of physical discrimination, they do not support the mental discrimination.
Like on this thread, they literally have views that shut down the lgbt community but then at the same time, like the police, say they march for equal rights.
I mean, of course many will support people from physical discrimination but if we mention that our discrimination runs deeper than that and we'd like you to address, there is friction.
Any religious who defines homosexuality as an action, police, military, politician, etc who supports gay rights from a gay community perspective, if they are not part of the community, it's like being spit in the face.
Yes, we want protection but it goes beyond that. How to address it from both angles is a totally different story.
and yes, I think @Vinayaka can treat us to a nice Chardene while we look across the Pacific with no land in site. I wonder if there'd be some dancin'
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
For Bahais, Bahaullah asked them to obey His Laws for the Love of His beauty:
“Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty." Bahaullah, Book of Aqdas.
Thus, for instance for those who are Homosexuals, whether they chose to be, or they were at birth, Bahaullah is saying if you love Him, then put aside your own desire, and obey Me. It is obvious that, if someone with a homosexual desires, has believed that Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God, and thus truly loves Bahaulah, would b able to set aside his/her desires. In Bahai Faith it is believed, by praying and perhaps getting help from medical professionals and counsellors, one can overcome this desire.
It is obvious those homosexusals who are not Bahais, are already not in the Faith, so, it makes no difference to them. They would not prey in Bahai way. For those who believed in Bahaullah as infallible Manifestation, they would strive to set aside their own desires, and live a Bahai life based on teachings of Bahaullah. I do not see why they could not? In the same way a straight person, in Bahai Faith is not suppose to have sex outside marriage. Though they would have the desire naturally, yet they obey Bahai Laws for the love of Baha. This is a choice they make.
It is obvious that, in this case, many of homosexuals would never have sex or get married. Is this unfair? Let me ask this. There are many who are born with physical problems, without eye, or hearing. Or without hand or leg. Mentally challenge. Is it fair? Well, in Bahai belief God is fair. This life ends for all. But the real life begins after this life. So, in this world all are tested having their own difficulties to overcome. Bahais do not see this world as the reality, or worthy to say, it is unfair some can never have sex, can never see, or are not rich. Bahai view goes beyond the worldly view.
Sounds something more like what an egotistical dictator would say.
I think the homosexual discussion has run it's course. It's clear the Baha'i' here aren't going to move from the very unscientific stance that it's like some genetic disorder to be overcome with the proper treatment. It's also clear the non-Baha'i' aren't going to be persuaded.
But there is good company (for the Baha'i') on this from the likes of fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam.
Likewise the non-Baha'i' also have good company, in scientists, progressive governments, and the like.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I can understand you. Bahais investigated, and recognized Bahaullah as a Manifestation of God, and the Beloved. For those who do not recognize Bahaullah as the Beloved, i can not see, why would they love Bahaullah and obey Him. However, to me, I have not seen even a single valid argument to disprove Bahaullah. I only see expressions of disbelief rather than a logical argument to refute Bahaullah.
And if you believe homosexual sex activity is good for spiritual development, Bahai teachings just says, it is harmful for them.