How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Going backwards.

You said all revealed faiths have the same foundation. As a result, we should believe this too. It is about us.

If I believed all religions point to god, I'd talk in a way that mirrors my belief. I'd say "We, as a humanity, believe in god. Some people may have trouble believing and others believe differently, but we all believe in god. To those who say they don't believe in god, will one day. That is why we have many wars because some people stray away from god's teachings and causes spiritual division among themselves. We as a lover of humanity need to work together as people who focus on one god."

That is what unity among diversity does. It (the idea) makes diversity have one foundation.

That is just an example of how I would think Bahai would phrase their belief giving their belief statements and tenants. I'd think it would be we-humanity.

I mean, as a lover of humanity, why speak from your community and not as a whole? I know people will disagree with you; and, logically, if you're claiming that humanity points to on god, speak of humanity not just what Bahai believe.

We already know. Upgrade a bit to the next level.

How do we build greater peace to where we all agree with each other?

Your opinion isn't yours if you're consider yourself part of humanity as the solution to greater peace. It's always we. You are always focusing on the community not on yourself (We-Bahai).​

This is what all humanity needs to reflect on. How do we get along with each other in this new age where all the races, religions and nations intermingle and mix with each other?

This is the challenge before us all.

Australia once was ruled by the Australian White policy. Aborigines had no rights as did women. Now it's a multicultural country of immigrants where it is more open to diversity but it still has prejudices and injustices committed against minorities.

So the goal and challenge is to accept our diversity. It is taking time to break down prejudices as they have been ingrained for so many centuries but we all people are trying and gradually unity in diversity will come from these efforts.

 

[loverofhumanity]

LH, this has not been my observation. Maybe in real life, I've never seen it in real life, but certainly not on this thread. On this thread it's been the infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the superiority of the Baha'i' faith as compared to all other faiths. It has been insulting to humanity, to all the non-Baha'i' folk.

If it was about humanity, the people here would be out helping humanity, not arguing incessantly about how we're better than everyone else.

Here we have been mainly discussing the influence of the Manifestations upon civilization. But They have always come to create a better society and increase spirituality.

The benefits of Their Teachings however often did not fully appear until centuries after Their passing.

The Baha'i World Order has not yet fully unfolded so it's potential has not yet been appreciated. One could say where is the fruit in the seed but one day it becomes a tree bearing fruit.

Until that time one can continue to argue that they see no fruit in the seed but that would be untrue.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which manifestation has prevented wars? Some even fought in wars.

To my knowledge the Manifestations only promoted self defense after continually being attacked either by the Meccans or the Amalekites. They were never promoters of war. They did fight just wars though.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So could you explain Judaism? It has Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses... all manifestations. Then it has several prophets. And then it has those that are "anointed". The main one being David. And still I don't think that within Judaism itself, any of them are considered what Baha'is call manifestations.

We have been told that Manifestations always existed even before recorded history. Just there are no records. But in the Adamic Cycle I think the Manifestations are the Ones Who bring a new Revelation with a Book. But the further we go back in history it becomes more difficult to identify Them as we often don't have any Book.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which form of Christianity advanced humanity forward? The Roman Catholic Church?

My understanding is that true Christianity is in the heart not an organization. So humanity was advanced in positive directions by sincere, virtuous Christians of any denominations. Often it was the leaders and popes who cause wars and hatred. But the true Christian only spread love and goodwill.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here we have been mainly discussing the influence of the Manifestations upon civilization. But They have always come to create a better society and increase spirituality.

In recent times, there is little evidence to support that. The followers of Christ were responsible for the Crusades, the followers of Muhammed were responsible for the largest genocide in history. Two rather nasty world wars happened AFTER your prophet. I don't see that correlating with a 'better society' unless ridding the world of non-believers means a better society.

But since those wars, the world has improved a lot, due to the repugnant nature of them, and people in general not wanting to see that brutal movie again.

Earlier peoples may well have been better off, but the sands of time won't allow is to know much about them. Did you know, for example that Krishna is the central figure of a long Indian epic, (the Mahabharata) and that there is debate as to the nature of that epic. Some feel it is akin to the Illiad and the Odyssey, a rich tapestry, but fiction, while others hold that it is history.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is what all humanity needs to reflect on. How do we get along with each other in this new age where all the races, religions and nations intermingle and mix with each other?

This is the challenge before us all.

Australia once was ruled by the Australian White policy. Aborigines had no rights as did women. Now it's a multicultural county of immigrants where it is more open to diversity but it still has prejudices and injustices committed against minorities.

So the goal and challenge is to accept our diversity. It is taking time to break down prejudices as they have been ingrained for so many centuries but we all people are trying and gradually unity in diversity will come from these efforts.

Im talking of greater peace. Spiritual peace.

I have a friend from Malasia that tells me everything she believes is what her family believes. Although she is born in the states, she is culturally philipine. Americans are individualist.

So I asked her what She wanted to take up in college. And she always answered, "my family" or a plural wors so it doesnt separate her from her family.

Same as religion. Catholics would see themselves differently and talk about themselves as a unit (part of the church) before talking about their beliefs unless its not religious.

Identifying with ones family or within ones church is part of greater peace. It is a unique and healthy way to see each iher as part of a unit.

I hear "we should" believe a lot but dont hear "we do." I hear we are currupted or imperfect but I never hear we are growing and we are learning.

These are greater peace. Its not just political. Senators and presidents are human too. There is no separation.

We, as a humanity, believe there is one god. We are diverse in that each person sees god in different ways. Each religion appropriate for its time. We, as a humanity, seek the message of various religious figures that talks about god. We are respectful to each other because we all come from god regardless of who you are. There is no Bahai, Christianity, Hindu, Pagan, etc, because we are one (sun) with many names (rays).

When you say it like this, it does not separate bahai from humanity. It doesnt say "they have not accepted; they rejectes"

When you talk about humanity, you talk about you. When you see murder on the news, that is not separate from you. Your virtues and heart is not different than a murder.

We humanity means all people.

But, again, diversity and unity are opposites. You cant have two people standing on separate blocks (red and green) and say their foundations are the same even though the rest of us see them miles apart from each other.

How do you see two standing on one physical block (foundation) when they are on their own blocks regardless of how alike they look at what virtues they share?

 

[Vinayaka]

We have been told that Manifestations always existed even before recorded history. Just there are no records. But in the Adamic Cycle I think the Manifestations are the Ones Who bring a new Revelation with a Book. But the further we go back in history it becomes more difficult to identify Them as we often don't have any Book.

Told by Baha'u'llah who is no world authority outside of your faith. So it means very little.

 

[Dawnofhope]

LH, this has not been my observation. Maybe in real life, I've never seen it in real life, but certainly not on this thread. On this thread it's been the infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the superiority of the Baha'i' faith as compared to all other faiths. It has been insulting to humanity, to all the non-Baha'i' folk.

If it was about humanity, the people here would be out helping humanity, not arguing incessantly about how we're better than everyone else.

I've been too busy assisting humanity to engage in too much debate

I don't believe the argument is about superiority but how does God operate. For example does He intervene in human affairs by inspiring great spiritual Teachers like the Ones referred to in the OP.

 

[Vinayaka]

To my knowledge the Manifestations only promoted self defense after continually being attacked either by the Meccans or the Amalekites. They were never promoters of war. They did fight just wars though.

So your 'manifestations' Krishna and Buddha were attacked by Meccans and Amalekites? You have proof of this?

 

[Tumah]

Acceptable to who? To the Jews?

To anyone, really. Certainly to Jews.

When we consider that the days of the weeks represent periods of history hundreds to thousands of years apart, why wouldn't God change His guidance to humanity according to the exigencies of the time?

Because we're not just talking about rules here, Do this or do that. We're talking about what is objectively true. Either G-d does not manifest in human form or He does. It seems like something important to be clear about, since its something He was willing to kill people over.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've been too busy assisting humanity to engage in too much debate

I don't believe the argument is about superiority but how does God operate. For example does He intervene in human affairs by inspiring great spiritual Teachers like the Ones referred to in the OP.

Yes, I believe you have been.

You could well be right. Those of us who don't believe God operates through manifestations have been told repeatedly that that is an inferior viewpoint though. Maybe not directly, but by the insistence that manifestations exist, and are progressive. In Hinduism God definitely takes a more direct approach. Less filtering. The Hindu temple itself is seen as God's house. We go to commune directly with God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We have been doing exactly that. Where have you been? Your entire argument is "Baha'u'llah is infallible. What he said is true." That's not really much of an argument. If you went to a court over an arson charge, and said, "I didn't do it. I'm infallible, and what I say is true!" do you really think the judge let you off?

So just where would you like to start? You said that Baha'u'llah was self-taught, and claimed that to be some proof of his infallibility. I countered with a long list of famous people who were self taught. You never replied to that, but just chose to ignore it. What can I say?

So again, how do you explain the ability to self-teach? Do you at least acknowledge that many people have done what your prophet did? It's a fact after all. You are agreeing with facts no?

Good question.

My answer is that Baha'u'llah wasn't self taught but received revelation direct from God.

For instance He revealed Books in hours such as the Book of Certitude about 257 pages but the style and depth and content prove that no human being could have composed such a treatise in such a short time especially an uneducated person.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So your 'manifestations' Krishna and Buddha were attacked by Meccans and Amalekites? You have proof of this?

I was speaking about the Jews and Muslims.

 

[Dawnofhope]

To anyone, really. Certainly to Jews.

I prefer a broad framework with general principles that would be acceptable to peoples of different faiths.

At least with Judaism there is body of sacred writings and understandings that are clear and a useful starting point for adherents of Abrahamic Faiths.

Because we're not just talking about rules here, Do this or do that. We're talking about what is objectively true. Either G-d does not manifest in human form or He does. It seems like something important to be clear about, since its something He was willing to kill people over.

It is important to be clear about how God Manifests himself. Baha'is would agree that God does not manifest Himself physically but makes Himself known through Great Spiritual Teachers. In that manner God Manifested Himself through Moses to reveal the laws to the Jewish people. He did not physically incarnate Himself as a man named Jesus as the Christians believe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In recent times, there is little evidence to support that. The followers of Christ were responsible for the Crusades, the followers of Muhammed were responsible for the largest genocide in history. Two rather nasty world wars happened AFTER your prophet. I don't see that correlating with a 'better society' unless ridding the world of non-believers means a better society.

But since those wars, the world has improved a lot, due to the repugnant nature of them, and people in general not wanting to see that brutal movie again.

Earlier peoples may well have been better off, but the sands of time won't allow is to know much about them. Did you know, for example that Krishna is the central figure of a long Indian epic, (the Mahabharata) and that there is debate as to the nature of that epic. Some feel it is akin to the Illiad and the Odyssey, a rich tapestry, but fiction, while others hold that it is history.

I believe religion is only good. When it becomes violent or causes war it ceases to be religion except in name only. The teachings of all religions are about love and unity and getting along with people not fighting wars.

So we have the organization and the outward form of religions today but those who are involved in violence are not truly religious because to be religious means to be virtuous and upright and of benefit and a person of peace and goodwill.

Krishna did everything He could to prevent war. He tried to establish a peace pact first.

My previous point is that all the religions had billions of combined followers and they could not prevent the world wars and the only peace plan not yet tried up till today are the Teachings of Bahaullah which state that we need to recognise 'legally' that humanity comes first before national, racial and religious agendas. Then we will have peace but this has not yet been tried or attempted so it cannot be said to have failed.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, I believe you have been.

You could well be right. Those of us who don't believe God operates through manifestations have been told repeatedly that that is an inferior viewpoint though. Maybe not directly, but by the insistence that manifestations exist, and are progressive. In Hinduism God definitely takes a more direct approach. Less filtering. The Hindu temple itself is seen as God's house. We go to commune directly with God.

I have a sense that Hindus and Baha'is emphasise different aspects of the spiritual path. For example Hindus have an inner goal of achieving Moksha whereas Baha'is have an outer goal of creating world peace. In reality the development of the inner spiritual life and service are simply different sides of the same coin. We breath in and we breath out.

It is interesting that all the main faiths have temples, where adherents engage in communal worship and become more connected to the mystic reality.

 

[Sundance]

We need to realize where did this idea that Krishna is God comes from. Did Krishna say He is God? Or He said He is created? Or both. You would need to quote authentic sayings of Krishna on this. We need to base our words on verifiable evidences, otherwise anybody can say anything. Where is the proof though?

It's all over The Gita, man.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is some information about the war Krishna was involved in the Gita from a Hindu source.

Krishna and War

Now we need to look at the context in which Lord Krishna asks Arjuna, who wants to put down his arms, to take to warfare.

Before the battle of Kurukshetra, the Pandavas went through unimaginable persecution for no fault of theirs. Their food was poisoned, they were attempted to be murdered in an act of arson, they were cheated of their rightful kingdom, mercenaries were engaged to attack and murder them etc. The Pandavas bore everything stoically. Their response to all such acts of violence was exemplary tolerance and patience. Finally, when the time came to reclaim their right to rule, they were denied the opportunity.

Lord Krishna, to set an example, although being the Supreme Lord, Himself set out as a messenger of peace to the Kauravas. And what was the result? Duryodhana tried to unlawfully imprison Him and when he failed, refused to part with the rightful share of the kingdom to the Pandavas. Still seeking peace, Lord Krishna made one last ditch effort – He asked for five villages instead of a whole kingdom. In reply, Duryodhana said that he wouldn’t give land even to the extent of the tip of a needle. That was the trigger for the war. So when the Gita was spoken, all options for peace had already been exhausted. Hence the use of violence became essential to avoid an infringement on the right of the Pandavas and to establish a just and transparent government.

Does Gita Encourage Violence?

 

[Vinayaka]

Good question.

My answer is that Baha'u'llah wasn't self taught but received revelation direct from God.

He is one in at least 10 000 to have made that claim. Each follower of the other 9 999 make the same claim as you. So?

For example, ask any Mormon about Joseph Smith.