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How are these Great Beings explained?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Since Islam was the latest religion until the Baha'i Faith, and people should have recognized it as being from God, what does it teach about God and life after-death.
No, the latest (for the Abrahamic religions) was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (followers known as Ahmadiyyas). And in India, prophets and messengers are like meteor showers they happen on a monthly basis (Meteor shower - Wikipedia).
“In public, we say the race is to the strongest; in private, we know that a lopsided man runs the fastest along the little side hills of success.” - Frank M. Colby
Trying to get what he meant. Or you explain.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's something that we haven't talked enough about. What's it like in any religion to believe it and experience it as taught by the people in that religion. A good example is Pentecostal Christianity. The foundational beliefs are similar to other Protestants, but they believe in the "gifts" of the Spirit. They talk in "tongues" and prophecy and do healings. None of it may be true or real, but they think it is. Even those foundational beliefs... of Jesus being God. That Satan the devil is real. And a person must believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved. If Baha'is are right, none of those are the truth. But, they experience God through their religion. So what is it they are experiencing?

It's the Manifestation of God Who is the One Who judges on these matters as He soeaks for God Himself. Whatever He says is what God has said. Whatever He deems true or untrue is what God has deemed true or untrue.

We Baha'is may not have the individual experiences of all these traditions or beliefs, only the ones we were raised in, but that doesn't mean we cannot know from the Manifestation what is true and what is not.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If we consider that the major religions have superseded the primitive religions, then great progress has been made.
I do not think we have been superseded by anything or any philosophy. We are doing exactly what our ancestors were doing thousands of years ago. We are primitives and proud of that.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes I know, and it isn't nearly the same as reincarnation in the Hindu or dharmic sense.

Reincarnation - Wikipedia

We've been through all this before. Why would you want to do it again? Please read the link.

I don't see much point in debating this either. As far as I can see we not prove or disprove reincarnation or any other perspectives on an afterlife. We can state our beliefs and some of the arguments either way, but there is no definitive proof one way or the other. The Baha'i and Hindu positions are very clear. The point of agreement is we have a soul or spirit that progresses to a life beyond this one.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not think we have been superseded by anything or any philosophy. We are doing exactly what our ancestors were doing thousands of years ago. We are primitives and proud of that.

If that were so, then the data I presented would look very different. No Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism and high numbers indigenous religions. India's profile of religious adherents has been influenced by major world religions too.

Religion in India - Wikipedia
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Eh. That's the only thing I disagree with, the connection between Bahaullah and christianity (and the other revealed religions) not your goals and your spiritual growth. We believe different things. Wha make sense to one person (any person) doesn't always make sense to another.

I can understand why it is hard to see how a Persian man born into Islam would be the fulfilment of prophecies in Christianity. Then again, the Jews can not understand how Jesus was the Messiah they are still waiting for.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If that were so, then the data I presented would look very different. No Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism and high numbers indigenous religions.
If anyone leaves the fold, then the person is no longer our concern. We wish him/her all happiness. However, we are still a billion strong.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I can understand why it is hard to see how a Persian man born into Islam would be the fulfilment of prophecies in Christianity. Then again, the Jews can not understand how Jesus was the Messiah they are still waiting for.

Jesus was a Jew, though. That makes more sense given he taught Jewish teachings. In another thread, I read something about Paul and the apostles were the ones who "created christianity". I side with the Jews on that one.

Yeah. It's weird. Bahaullah going to Jerusalem, going outward to Rome, then flying over to Nepali. Taking a break over at different parts of India, then traveling over to Israel, then taking a vacation in Iran. I know it's the Eastern part of the world, but he does have a means to travel.

The only way logically I can see that possible is as Lover and Investigar says, Bahaullah is, well, god. He'd, Bahaullah, have to take the words of the Moses, apostles, and disciples of The Buddha, and put them together while disregarding the traditions, languages, and cultures of the different areas he traveled to given they are so different, they can't be collided. Even though Jesus and The Buddha never wrote a thing and their teachings were orally transmitted, I guess that wouldn't matter as long since only the written teachings are sacred not oral traditions.

Meanwhile, as all of these things are happening, Bahaullah would have to have traveled in the years these prophets (jesus included) were alive. He'd have to be a somewhat superman and time travel (or god) to do so, really.

It's puzzling, though, if Bahaullah talked with jesus and said "hey, I dont believe you're god, but you are a manifestation of him..." and then go to Moses and Muhammad and tell them the same thing. All three would wonder if you're not making them equal to god, which is a big no-no and if they are not god, then what in the, um, world is a manifestation.

If god (Krishna), the prophets (Moses, Zoaraster, and Jesus), and enlightened ones (over 1,000s of Buddhas-let's say the historical Buddha and one of his bodhisattvas, Maitreya) sat in a circle with Bahaullah, son, and grandson, and Bahaullah said to them they are manifestations of god and educators, Krishna would probably say "well, that's kinda redundant. I am god." Well, he'd be more "I'm an incarnation of Vishnu who is an incarnation of Brahma so you're talking to the wrong person."

Then (going by lover and investigator's conversation) jesus would pipe in and say, well, I never said I was equal to god in the beginning, so how would I be equal to god regardless if you guys called me god or a manifestation of him? Are you saying, I'm an image of god? But, Bahaullah, you're not even my disciple. That's right, neither Jew or gentile, man or woman, okay, I give you that.

Muhammad would have similar sentiments with jesus about him being equal to god. Moses would probably get angry and throw the tablets on the ground telling Muhammad, Zoroaster (though he didn't say a word), and Bahaullah they are not hearing the word of god but an idol.

While Krishna would be, well, I'm not even a human like you guys are, so why am I here in the first place?

Haha. I can go on. It's not meant to be sarcastic just an interesting conclusion of what if these people and gods were sitting around talking to each other and whether they'd all agree with Bahaullah that they are manifestations of themselves or would keep to their own teachings and who they are. But once Bahaullah has the right to override their and their followers knowledge of them (going by Lover), and saying god gives them the right, then all of them would probably have a hissy fit and jesus calling him a fool.

If I wrote a story about this, it would be interesting.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't see much point in debating this either. As far as I can see we not prove or disprove reincarnation or any other perspectives on an afterlife. We can state our beliefs and some of the arguments either way, but there is no definitive proof one way or the other. The Baha'i and Hindu positions are very clear. The point of agreement is we have a soul or spirit that progresses to a life beyond this one.

A sensible approach. For me its never been about proof, just pointing out that different beliefs and POVs exist. When belief is stated as fact, the false assumption is that it has already been proved.

Proof is from the intellect strata of mind.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
@Carlita

Baha'u'llah didn't need to travel to meet all the Prophets and of God Messengers. This is one instance where Baha'u'llah conversed with Them all night on the eve of His departure from Baghdad. In a dream He had at the time this is what He recounts. Clearly Baha'u'llah is being addressed not as God but as a Prophet.

I saw,” He wrote in a Tablet, “the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: ‘We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!’ They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: ‘…Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld…. Be patient, be patient.’… They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn. (Ruhi Book 4 Section 22)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah. It's weird. Bahaullah going to Jerusalem, going outward to Rome, then flying over to Nepali. Taking a break over at different parts of India, ..
Where did you get that? He never came anywhere near India or Nepal. He did not go anyplace West beyond Adrianople.

Yes, dreams. Mohammad visited heaven in a dream on Burraq, Bahaullah met that maiden in Siyah-Chal, and met the Prophets before leaving Baghdad, all in dreams. And people are supposed to take it as real. :D
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hey, can you quote me instead of @Name me? I don't get my @Name alerts.

Baha'u'llah didn't need to travel to meet all the Prophets and of God Messengers. This is one instance where Baha'u'llah conversed with Them all night on the eve of His departure from Baghdad. In a dream He had at the time this is what He recounts. Clearly Baha'u'llah is being addressed not as God but as a Prophet.

If he is human, he would need to. Prophets are usually human, though.

I saw,” He wrote in a Tablet, “the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: ‘We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!’ They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: ‘…Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld…. Be patient, be patient.’… They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn. (Ruhi Book 4 Section 22)

I know that's what he says. I'm not saying you don't have a right to believe what's written. Logically (not whats written-writing someone down doesn't prove anything), as a human, he would have to have traveled to know these differing beliefs. It's fine to have dreams. Though, time and again on this thread, followers say that to know the religion, you have to physically be there to practice it.

Logically.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Where did you get that? He never came anywhere near India or Nepal. He did not go anyplace West beyond Constantinople.

Lol please re-read the post. It's not stating a fact, it's making a fictional conclusion of if Bahaullah were to do X he would have had to travel to these places.

Please re-read it in context.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Where did you get that? He never came anywhere near India or Nepal. He did not go anyplace West beyond Constantinople.

Again, re-read the post.

"The only way logically I can see that possible is as Lover and Investigar says, Bahaullah is, well, god."

It's a fictional conclusion if Bahai claims were correct that Bahaullah actually came into contact with the revealed religions in order to say the gods, prophets, and educators of these religions are manifestations.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hey, can you quote me instead of @Name me? I don't get my @Name alerts.



If he is human, he would need to. Prophets are usually human, though.



I know that's what he says. I'm not saying you don't have a right to believe what's written. Logically (not whats written-writing someone down doesn't prove anything), as a human, he would have to have traveled to know these differing beliefs. It's fine to have dreams. Though, time and again on this thread, followers say that to know the religion, you have to physically be there to practice it.

Logically.
Lol please re-read the post. It's not stating a fact, it's making a fictional conclusion of if Bahaullah were to do X he would have had to travel to these places.

Please re-read it in context.

Aup has missed much of this discussion, yes? So he doesn't have the background some of us do. Carlita, I like your post on dance at the bottom. I agree with it. It might interest you (trivia) that my guru, in his youth, was the premieur danseur (sp?) for the San Francisco ballet. Different kind of dance yes, but still interesting, at least to me.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Again, re-read the post.

"The only way logically I can see that possible is as Lover and Investigar says, Bahaullah is, well, god."

It's a fictional conclusion if Bahai claims were correct that Bahaullah actually came into contact with the revealed religions in order to say the gods, prophets, and educators of these religions are manifestations.


Well, he's all-knowing, all pervasive, all encompassing, infallible, the summation of all previous 'manifestations', and more. Of course he could do all of that. (According to Baha'i) Some of us disagree.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Aupmanyav

The Bahai claim is that Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam come from the same god, and that Krishna, The Buddha, his disciple Maitreya, Jesus, Moses, Zoroaster, and Muhammad predicted the coming of Bahaullah who, all in progression, taught about the god of abraham and the need for unity among diversity. Then, after this thousands of years, another manifestation will teach world peace until it happens. Since we still have wars etc, they feel the prophet's teachings were only relevant for their day.

In order for this to happen, Bahaullah, the person, would have had to travel to these different areas where these religions gave birth. The prophets, gods, and educators would all have to agree with each other in order to arrive at peace among diversity. That would mean, Hindus will need to believe in the god of abraham. The Buddha would need to know he speaks of the god of abraham without him knowing it. Muhammad would have to know jesus speaks for god. Jesus would have to agree that Krishna is part of the "chosen clan".

It was finally admitted that Bahaullah didn't speak much of Hinduism and up above that Bahaullah understood these religions via a dream.

The post you are commenting on is a fictional conclusion of if these prophets, gods, and educators conversed what would happen and what would they say.

It has nothing to do literally who traveled where. I assume Hinduism has no isolated place of origin, likewise with Buddhism. Islam, I'm not sure. Christianity covers a few surrounding countries. Judaism only local areas and one chosen people.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It has nothing to do literally who traveled where. I assume Hinduism has no isolated place of origin, likewise with Buddhism. Islam, I'm not sure.
Each and every village in India contributed to Hinduism.
Mohammad's home town was Mecca.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
No, how do you know they spoke symbolically? And, related to that, when the writer's quoted something Jesus said... was it always a parable? And same thing with the writer's, everything written in the NT was a parable or in some way symbolic?
You know that, one of the things that Bible teaches, is: the Prophecies of future are often expressed in Symbols and Figures.

In Old Testament, a Prophet said, He had a Vision, the Son of Man, coming with clouds...
In New Testament, Jesus repeated the same words, when describing the Signs of His coming back.
In Old Testament there are many passages, when, a Prophet says, He had a vision...then in some cases, even He gives their interpretations, which is not a literal interpretation, but symbolic.
In some case a passage is prophetic, but it may not appear so, untill the event comes to pass. You know about the Prophecies about Messiah, and how Christians believed some passages in OT were prophetic, but the Jews disagree....
 
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