How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Maunam - silence, no comment (to explain the word to those who may not know that).

Tirumular says the only true maunam is is mental, not speech.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, I need to know why Baha'is believe that the "inspired" people that wrote the gospel stories in the Bible wrote symbolically and were not reporting factual events?

I would think It's for the same reason, Jesus spoke parables. Why did Jesus speak in Parables?

Mind you, let's remember the story of Joseph, and the dream of Seven Cows. The Cows in the dream, were literal cows, or symbolic?
Have you ever had a dream which later came to pass in a way?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you didn't have Bahaullah's written physical words, you would not exist?

If mankind did not have Baha'u'llah, we would not exist.

That is the same for all Gods Messengers.

If there was no Krishna, or Buddha, or Christ, or Muhammad, there is no us. They are animating point of life Given by God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is akin to asking, "Why is Alexander the Great called Alexander the Great?"

It is because this world made "the sacrifice" to make him great. He was actually a tyrant and a barbarian.

I say that to say this: People pick and chose persons, places, things, and ideas that THEY want to make great. These are the things they make sacrifices to. No real sacrifice is made to the Creator. These are sacrifices made to the "god of this world." (2 Cor 4:4) The world is an idolatrous place.

To the Creator in heaven, it is all foolishness and self-serving.

While we think ourselves intelligent, enlightened and advanced, we are really still in a dark place. A Dark Age. And it gets darker every day.

The Dawn has come, the light has broken through the darkness of the night. The last traces of darkness are now only in the shadows of those who are turned away and not watching the rising Sun.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Original Guidance is a big hoax. The Grandpa in the sky (if there is any) never spoke to anyone, nor did he send sons, messengers and manifestations. These are all made up stories.

They are what is real. They are the dawning points of all life.

Always be well and happy, Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If mankind did not have Baha'u'llah, we would not exist.

That is the same for all Gods Messengers.

If there was no Krishna, or Buddha, or Christ, or Muhammad, there is no us. They are animating point of life Given by God.

Regards Tony

(@Vinayaka) If there were no Krishna, god would still exist. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu who is an incarnation of god not the other way around. God comes first.

Christ is the son of the father. People still existed before christ was born. Everyone is dependent on god, the father. Christ is only the prophet and messenger of god, not god himself. A Christian's existence doesn't depend on christ. They just feel without christ they can't be saved. I am not saved by criteria outside the Church and I am still here.

Likewise with Islam. God came first. Muhammad is a messenger of god not god himself. You exist apart from Muhammad's existence.

You can exist without guides and prophets. Thousands of people do. A lot of people say they can't exist without god. That is a very big difference.

As for Bahaullah, the way you make him sound, it sounds like he is god. Christ and Muhammad never taught that. Krishna is god not a prophet or manifestation of one. The Buddha did not point to god but to himself (and he taught that enlightenment-knowledge of kamma and rebirth-comes from ourselves by training the mind).

It's fine to believe that as a Bahai but it isn't Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, nor Islam.

To say it is, is an insult to these religions, their educators, gods, and prophets, and followers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

(@Vinayaka) If there were no Krishna, god would still exist. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu who is an incarnation of god not the other way around. God comes first.

Christ is the son of the father. People still existed before christ was born. Everyone is dependent on god, the father. Christ is only the prophet and messenger of god, not god himself. A Christian's existence doesn't depend on christ. They just feel without christ they can't be saved. I am not saved by criteria outside the Church and I am still here.

Likewise with Islam. God came first. Muhammad is a messenger of god not god himself. You exist apart from Muhammad's existence.

You can exist without guides and prophets. Thousands of people do. A lot of people say they can't exist without god. That is a very big difference.

As for Bahaullah, the way you make him sound, it sounds like he is god. Christ and Muhammad never taught that. Krishna is god not a prophet or manifestation of one. The Buddha did not point to god but to himself (and he taught that enlightenment-knowledge of kamma and rebirth-comes from ourselves by training the mind).

It's fine to believe that as a Bahai but it isn't Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, nor Islam.

To say it is, is an insult to these religions, their educators, gods, and prophets, and followers.

What is your take about these verses?


"I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. "
- The Bab
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 11-17

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"
Colossians 1:16

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In relation to my post? You have to at least tell me the point. I can't guess what you are referring to by a number of verses. That's why I don't like quotes unless you give me a point.

"I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. "

God is the first cause. (Therefore, our existence is dependent on god not the prophets-my thoughts)

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

No one gets what propositions are.

The son is a visible image of an invisible god. He is an image of god not god himself. Shares in the same divinity. Once he is human, by definition, he is no longer god.

All things are created by god not by jesus. Jesus is just the image of god, he isn't god himself.

Jesus always referred to his father. All of this is pointing to the creator not jesus. He'd find that as an insult, actually.

What are you getting at?

 

[Vinayaka]

(@Vinayaka) If there were no Krishna, god would still exist. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu who is an incarnation of god not the other way around. God comes first.

Christ is the son of the father. People still existed before christ was born. Everyone is dependent on god, the father. Christ is only the prophet and messenger of god, not god himself. A Christian's existence doesn't depend on christ. They just feel without christ they can't be saved. I am not saved by criteria outside the Church and I am still here.

Likewise with Islam. God came first. Muhammad is a messenger of god not god himself. You exist apart from Muhammad's existence.

You can exist without guides and prophets. Thousands of people do. A lot of people say they can't exist without god. That is a very big difference.

As for Bahaullah, the way you make him sound, it sounds like he is god. Christ and Muhammad never taught that. Krishna is god not a prophet or manifestation of one. The Buddha did not point to god but to himself (and he taught that enlightenment-knowledge of kamma and rebirth-comes from ourselves by training the mind).

It's fine to believe that as a Bahai but it isn't Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, nor Islam.

To say it is, is an insult to these religions, their educators, gods, and prophets, and followers.

My take is that it is all just belief. An atheist most certainly doesn't think his existence is dependent on God, much less another person from ancient history, other than his mother I suppose.

Personally, I do believe it's dependent on God, just not the GOA.

Anybody who likes to pretend it is fact needs to re-read a dictionary, focusing on belief and fact as words.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My take is that it is all just belief. An atheist most certainly doesn't think his existence is dependent on God, much less another person from ancient history, other than his mother I suppose.

Personally, I do believe it's dependent on God, just not the GOA.

Yeah. I think that's is a huge difference in and of itself between your faith and GOA believers.

In my opinion, I'm just an atheist because I disbelieve in deities. I do agree "god" (lack of better words, actually) is us rather than we come from god as everything that makes up life and how we live is our origin, our spirit, and our spirit after our physical passing. I always thought the phrase "god is life itself" much stronger than "god created life."

I've brought it up years ago about why the latter is more preferred than the former. Like proof that god is defined and exist by our TLC, the thread didn't get that far.

 

[CG Didymus]

The message of Islam which was in its winter was folded up and God new Message of the Bab opened the Spring of the New Day of God as promised by all the Holy Books of the past.

The Jewish Faith was renewed with the Message of Christ.

The Christian Faith was renewed with the Message of Muhammad in 622 AD, it lasted the 1260 years as foretold in Revelation.

In each of these Springs all followers of the previous Faiths have the choice of seeing the new Spring.

Regards Tony

Okay then, the Buddhist prophecy used by some of the Baha'is here says that Maitreya come after the original Buddhist message is no longer taught or something a long those lines. So going by your explanation the very next manifestation after Buddha should be the Maitreya, right? Otherwise Buddhism never reached it's "winter" until Baha'u'llah. Yet Christianity only lasted 600 years and was replaced by Muhammad's message?

 

[CG Didymus]

...All early belief systems seem to begin with spirits tied in with the natural world and develop from there. Just because we are aware of more advanced belief systems doesn't negate God's influence on less developed cultures. I'm wondering if you are limiting God's influence and powers?

That's why we need both science and religion as a foundation to human knowledge. One without the other leads to materialism or superstition...

Show me the how you think the one true God influenced the beliefs in some of the different tribal religions? I am limiting the influence of some people's gods. Right now, I don't believe the Baha'i God did a good job at getting his message across through his different manifestations.

 

[CG Didymus]

Been a busy week at work so picking up on this thread where we left off.

An important distinction here is that as a Baha'i I have recognised that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. So the logical step is to become a Baha'i. I do not see that as moving away from God, but moving closer to Him as He would want me to follow the One He promised would come. So God, Jesus, and the Bible become more, not less relevant. You may disagree but it is what it is. There is a parallel with the Jews who became Christians. I think this is different from one who has been a Catholic but is no longer practising. I'm still practicing, but my practice as changed.

To be consistent, every true spiritual person should have become a believer in the very next religion. So a Buddhist should have become the religion of the very next manifestation. Like you say, it's like a Jew who became Christian. Then all true Christians should have followed the teachings of Islam. But, because the teachings are so different and contradictory, this rarely happens.

Since Islam was the latest religion until the Baha'i Faith, and people should have recognized it as being from God, what does it teach about God and life after-death.

 

[CG Didymus]

All those that Follow Gods Messenger and His Given Laws are of the Chosen. Jew is not a Race, it is a Bounty to be had.

Regards Tony

That was not the question. Jews have a manifestation. What did he tell them to do? Was it inclusive or exclusive of the people in the surrounding countries?

 

[CG Didymus]

... I don't have the Hindu experience...

That's something that we haven't talked enough about. What's it like in any religion to believe it and experience it as taught by the people in that religion. A good example is Pentecostal Christianity. The foundational beliefs are similar to other Protestants, but they believe in the "gifts" of the Spirit. They talk in "tongues" and prophecy and do healings. None of it may be true or real, but they think it is. Even those foundational beliefs... of Jesus being God. That Satan the devil is real. And a person must believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved. If Baha'is are right, none of those are the truth. But, they experience God through their religion. So what is it they are experiencing?

 

[CG Didymus]

I would think It's for the same reason, Jesus spoke parables. Why did Jesus speak in Parables?

Mind you, let's remember the story of Joseph, and the dream of Seven Cows. The Cows in the dream, were literal cows, or symbolic?
Have you ever had a dream which later came to pass in a way?

No, how do you know they spoke symbolically? And, related to that, when the writer's quoted something Jesus said... was it always a parable? And same thing with the writer's, everything written in the NT was a parable or in some way symbolic?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Show me the how you think the one true God influenced the beliefs in some of the different tribal religions? I am limiting the influence of some people's gods. Right now, I don't believe the Baha'i God did a good job at getting his message across through his different manifestations.

First, there is no Baha'i God. It is applying an outdated Christian concept to the Baha'i Revelation, but Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, not to be confused with God Himself. If we understand that God has manifested Himself through the great beings as outlined in the OP then God has done an excellent job of getting His message across.

If we consider that the major religions have superseded the primitive religions, then great progress has been made.

In regards to primitive religions we need to consider these on a case by case basis. The religion of the indigenous Maori people has a hierarchy of Gods with a supreme father God

Family tree of the Māori gods - Wikipedia

Shinto the indigenous religion of the Japanese people also has a supreme sun God Amaterasu.

Amaterasu - Wikipedia

List of Japanese deities - Wikipedia

These are the two indigenous religions I am most familiar with. They have similarities and appear to set the scene for more developed systems of belief.

 

[Dawnofhope]

To be consistent, every true spiritual person should have become a believer in the very next religion. So a Buddhist should have become the religion of the very next manifestation. Like you say, it's like a Jew who became Christian. Then all true Christians should have followed the teachings of Islam. But, because the teachings are so different and contradictory, this rarely happens.

There are many reasons why people remain within the religion of their ancestors rather than change faith. Spirituality maybe one reason amidst others. I would be careful about judging the spirituality of someone because of their allegiance to an allegedly newer religion. For example, Judas Iscariot spent a great deal of time in the company of Jesus but he would hardly be considered spiritual.

Since Islam was the latest religion until the Baha'i Faith, and people should have recognized it as being from God, what does it teach about God and life after-death.

Many Muslims did recognise the Bab as being the return of the twelfth Imam as recorded in the Hadith. Thousands were put the death for their efforts.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

Islam has many similar beliefs to the Baha'i Faith in regards to God and the afterlife.

https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/concept-of-god-in-islam/

Islamic view of death - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

They are what is real. They are the dawning points of all life.

Very few. Mostly they have been enslavers (my way or hell).

A lot of people say they can't exist without god.

I have existed happily without any God. Never faced any problem.

What is your take about these verses? "I am the Primal .. by him, and for him"

Nice word salad for those who will believe. Useless rants for those who will not believe.

.. other than his mother I suppose.

And a father. Not every one is born immaculately by the mother being breathed in.

So going by your explanation the very next manifestation after Buddha should be the Maitreya, right?

I do not think Maitreya is something that Buddha taught. "The religious belief of Maitreya apparently developed around the same time as that of Amitabha, as early as the 3rd century CE" - Wikipedia-Maitreya). Buddha said every one has the potentiality for enlightenment and become a Buddha.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Most likely they are later on the continuum, and have received notice due to the availability of news. Yes, people all have different skills. Some artists may well have had very poor social skills, we don't know. Doesn't make them 'better' people.

How about this for a non-Baha'i quote?

“In public, we say the race is to the strongest; in private, we know that a lopsided man runs the fastest along the little side hills of success.” -Frank M. Colby