How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Yes this is the Baha'i' belief. It's the same as the Christian's belief, or the Islamic belief, in that everyone in Abrahamism knows that God spoke to them, and to them alone. Too bad God doesn't say the same thing to everyone, eh?

In Hinduism, God wouldn't speak to people, because He's not separate from them, so there would be no need. Very different paradigms.

But what if it's true and God did speak? You believe, worship and love God so wouldn't you cherish anything God said?

 

[Vinayaka]

Your concept of reincarnation where does it originate from,

No origin. It's like gravity. As soon as God emanates and becomes manifest, there is gravity. Same with reincarnation. It just is. God 'created' it, as a natural law. Of course you are perfectly free to hold a different view than mine. I wouldn't say it was false, just a different view. After all, I am a Hindu, and you are a Baha'i'. There are some very major differences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am sure @loverofhumanity means impossibility of literal incarnation.

Yes definitely.

 

[Vinayaka]

But what if it's true and God did speak? You believe, worship and love God so wouldn't you cherish anything God said?

Sorry, what is the 'it' you are referring to this time?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But you do. Or at least Baha'u'llah's son did. Does that mean that Baha'u'llah's son is also God? You have me confused now.

I quote Abdulbaha:

"Our purpose in what we are about to say is to express the truth and not to denigrate the
beliefs of others: It is merely to explain the facts of the matter and nothing more. Otherwise, we are neither inclined to dispute anyone’s deeply held beliefs, nor do we sanction such conduct."

 

[Vinayaka]

I quote Abdulbaha:

"Our purpose in what we are about to say is to express the truth and not to denigrate the
beliefs of others: It is merely to explain the facts of the matter and nothing more. Otherwise, we are neither inclined to dispute anyone’s deeply held beliefs, nor do we sanction such conduct."

Any yet he can, in the next paragraph, say the Hindu belief in reincarnation is false. How is that not denigrating? facts of the matter? ... you mean personal beliefs on it. They aren't facts.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sorry, what is the 'it' you are referring to this time?M

By 'it' I simply meant that what if God did speak to humanity through the Manifestations. If we love God wouldn't we cherish His every Word?

 

[Vinayaka]

By 'it' I simply meant that what if God did speak to humanity through the Manifestations. If we love God wouldn't we cherish His every Word?

You've asked me this before. I can't remember what I said then. But it's a 'go to' position, and false argument in a debate. I can tell you New York is the capital of Queensland, you can refute it, and then I can say, 'But what if it is?"

Saying "What if __________ is true?" isn't really any kind of proof, or even has any place in a debate.
I can just respond with "What if it isn't true?" and then you back with, "What if it is?" Surely we're all more mature than to be that silly in an adult debate.

 

[Vinayaka]

Any belief, by definition, cannot be verifiably true or false. It is only an opinion. I think it belittles everyone's intelligence to refer to one's beliefs as facts. How many times have you heard a politician say, "Well, the facts of the matter ..." knowing full well it's just his belief.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bahai Scriptures does not necessarily reject Vishnu or Shiva. In principle says, God have been called with different names, in different times, among different people.

For example, among Muslims, God is called Allah. Among Christians Yahowah.

Do you understand the difference between Vishnu and Krishna?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because Krishna is said to be the eight Avatar of Vishnu Who is described in the Bhagavad Gita as returning from age to age to reestablish the principles of religion and destroy wickedness.

Why not Vishnu? Vishnu is god. You can learn a lot from Vishnu directly. That, and why Krishna and no other Hindu god? You can learn about Brahman through all Hindu gods and their incarnations. Why just Krishna?

That, and as mentioned, why only the Gita?

Lastly, why depend on the Gita when Hindu retrieve truth from practice instead of relying on a sacred book for knowledge of god?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bahai Scriptures does not necessarily reject Vishnu or Shiva. In principle says, God have been called with different names, in different times, among different people.

For example, among Muslims, God is called Allah. Among Christians Yahowah.

If Vishnu and Krishna are the same god with different names, why would krishna be an avatar of himself?

Nevermind the fact that Krishna and Vishnu are incarnations of Brahman not of themselves. (@Vinayaka)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'i Scriptures confirms Hell, Heaven, Resurrection, Day of Judgement, Reincarnation, Rebirth, Return, Cycles, Trinity, Resurrection of Jesus, Satan, evil, Miracles of Jesus, such as curing blind, Miracles of Moses, such as dividing the River, and Miracles of other Manifestations, angels, transforming Animals to human, Transforming humans to animals...et

All of these things are literal. Regardless of your belief, it doesnt determine what is fact for Another person's religion.

Rebirth is Actually and literay going through stages or lifetimes until one is knowledgable in the nature of suffering. The Buddha gone through many rebirhs to reach that point. Its not symbolism.

Thats like a mathmetician tells you two and two is four and your god says it is five and instead of saying "we have different beliefs" you continue quoting your prophet as if he can make a four into a five or disregard his facts as symbolism.

Thats silly.

Resurrection of jesus is a physical event. It must be for christians to be literally not symbolically (and not enlightened) to be with god of abraham (not Brahman and not Ordin).

Curing the blind has to be a physical event. Again, jesus is emphasing that one doesnt need the physical faith by explaining the contrast of him actually raising the dead comprared to his faith in his father raising the dead instead.

His disciples wanted a physical sign. Jesus kept teaching that physical is not the key, yes And he showed real life (to christians) examples to illustrate his point.

If you dont believe in reincarnation, rebirth, recerection, satan, and miracles, you are taking out some of the very cores of these religions.

You do not believe in krishna, jesus, etc because what you Believe is not a fact.

Its a belief. You can either have facts in your faith to respect other religions or take the ideas and practices out of the faith to not insult other religions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Any yet he can, in the next paragraph, say the Hindu belief in reincarnation is false. How is that not denigrating? facts of the matter? ... you mean personal beliefs on it. They aren't facts.

In case of Abdulbaha, Bahais believe He was appointed by God, as infallible interpreter of His Words. He is given the title of Mystery of God. There are many quotes revealed by Bahaullah as an evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, he was quoting Baha'u'llah's son.

Within the context, Abdulbaha's quote, rejects literal reincarnation. But in Bahai view reincarnation is not rejected in Bahai Scriptures, if it is understood symbolically, the way Abdulbaha explained it. I quote Abdulbaha on that:

"The subject of reincarnation has two aspects. One is that which the Hindustani people believe, and even that is subdivided into two: reincarnation and metempsychosis. According to one belief the soul goes and then returns in certain reincarnations; therefore, they say that a sick person is sick because of actions in a previous incarnation and that this is retribution. The other school of Hinduism believes that man sometimes appears as an animal—a donkey, for instance—and that this is retribution for past acts. I am referring to the beliefs in that country, the beliefs of the schools. There is a reincarnation of the prophetic mission. Jesus Christ, speaking of John the Baptist, declared he was Elias. When John the Baptist was questioned, “Art thou Elias?” he said, “I am not.” These two statements are apparently contradictory, but in reality they do not contradict. The light is one light. The light which illumined this lamp last night is illuminating it tonight. This does not mean that the identical rays of light have reappeared but the virtues of illumination. The light which revealed itself through the glass reveals itself again so that we can say the light of this evening is the light of last evening relighted. This is as regards its virtues and not as regards its former identity. This is our view of reincarnation. We believe in that which Jesus Christ and all the Prophets have believed. For example, the Báb states, “I am the return of all the Prophets.” This is significant of the oneness of the prophetic virtues, the oneness of power, the oneness of bestowal, the oneness of radiation, the oneness of expression, the oneness of revelation."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 163-171

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The logic is that we refer any question to the All Knowing God. And we accept what He says because we respect His authority as God. He is All Knowing, we are not.

We love God and therefore cherish His Guidance and do not regard our own views and opinions but follow what guidance God has given us instead.

God can only convey to us through His Teachers was is true or not and then He leaves us to choose our own way.

Loverofhumanity, Im used to if you love god you have a personal relationship with him and vis versa. Assuming you dont believe jesus is god, do you actually experience the love of jesus, bahaullah, muhammad personally because they are manefestations of god?

If not, how are sacred text authority enough to talk for god (remember. Krishna is excluded since hinduism isnt a text oriented religion)?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Within the context, Abdulbaha's quote, rejects literal reincarnation. But in Bahai view reincarnation is not rejected in Babai Scriptures, if it is understood symbolically, the way Abdulbaha explained it. I quote Abdulbaha on that:

"The subject of reincarnation has two aspects. One is that which the Hindustani people believe, and even that is subdivided into two: reincarnation and metempsychosis. According to one belief the soul goes and then returns in certain reincarnations; therefore, they say that a sick person is sick because of actions in a previous incarnation and that this is retribution. The other school of Hinduism believes that man sometimes appears as an animal—a donkey, for instance—and that this is retribution for past acts. I am referring to the beliefs in that country, the beliefs of the schools. There is a reincarnation of the prophetic mission. Jesus Christ, speaking of John the Baptist, declared he was Elias. When John the Baptist was questioned, “Art thou Elias?” he said, “I am not.” These two statements are apparently contradictory, but in reality they do not contradict. The light is one light. The light which illumined this lamp last night is illuminating it tonight. This does not mean that the identical rays of light have reappeared but the virtues of illumination. The light which revealed itself through the glass reveals itself again so that we can say the light of this evening is the light of last evening relighted. This is as regards its virtues and not as regards its former identity. This is our view of reincarnation. We believe in that which Jesus Christ and all the Prophets have believed. For example, the Báb states, “I am the return of all the Prophets.” This is significant of the oneness of the prophetic virtues, the oneness of power, the oneness of bestowal, the oneness of radiation, the oneness of expression, the oneness of revelation."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 163-171

Why call it reincarnation when its from a bahai view and not hindu?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"We should take the Baha'i Revelation as including Abdul-Baha too as He was appointed by Baha'u'llah Who knew whatever Bahaullah meant and He explained proofs and reasons of the impossibility of reincarnation." from loverofhumanity

Talk about disagreeing with yourselves, lol. Don't worry, it's all good.

Not at all, we all say the same thing, but from each of our own Frame of Reference, I can agree 100% with how that passage was posted.

This is also how we must Look at Gods Messages, they say the same thing but with different Frames of Reference.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

All of these things are literal. Regardless of your belief, it doesnt determine what is fact for Another person's religion.

Rebirth is Actually and literay going through stages or lifetimes until one is knowledgable in the nature of suffering. The Buddha gone through many rebirhs to reach that point. Its not symbolism.

Thats like a mathmetician tells you two and two is four and your god says it is five and instead of saying "we have different beliefs" you continue quoting your prophet as if he can make a four into a five or disregard his facts as symbolism.

Thats silly.

Resurrection of jesus is a physical event. It must be for christians to be literally not symbolically (and not enlightened) to be with god of abraham (not Brahman and not Ordin).

Curing the blind has to be a physical event. Again, jesus is emphasing that one doesnt need the physical faith by explaining the contrast of him actually raising the dead comprared to his faith in his father raising the dead instead.

His disciples wanted a physical sign. Jesus kept teaching that physical is not the key, yes And he showed real life (to christians) examples to illustrate his point.

If you dont believe in reincarnation, rebirth, recerection, satan, and miracles, you are taking out some of the very cores of these religions.

You do not believe in krishna, jesus, etc because what you Believe is not a fact.

Its a belief. You can either have facts in your faith to respect other religions or take the ideas and practices out of the faith to not insult other religions.

The Author of Bible, Quran, Hindu Scriptures, Buddhism...did not say, interpret Our Words literally always. People interpreted them literally, and according to their own imaginations.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why call it reincarnation when its from a bahai view and not hindu?

Because in Bahai View, the idea originated from God, and now God is making it clear what He meant by reincarnation.