• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@InvestigateTruth

Its true. Thats like if I told you what I drew IS a bear hurting a person and I said it means protection.

You come in an say, "No, no, no. There is no violence. Its only symbolism of protection."

And I repeat, "the bear is killing the person and it means protection"

Again you deny the truth. The truth is not based on you and your belief because it is NOT your belief. Its not your drawing.

The only people who can intepret spiritually the message and literalness of the text are the people who believe and practice it. Even if it says god killed thousands so his chosen people can sit on a land. If you want that belief in yours, you got to go by their critera

Or dont call it christianity, jesus, krishna, etc. Use your own words.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Thanks. So Baha'u'llah had nothing to do with it?
God created Bahaullah's Soul, to be like a Mirror, reflecting God's Word and attributes. So, in this sense, Bahaullah had nothing to do with it.


"By My Life! Not of Mine own volition have I revealed Myself, but God, of His own choosing, hath manifested Me."....."Whenever I chose to hold My peace and be still, lo, the Voice of the Holy Spirit, standing on My right hand, aroused Me, and the Most Great Spirit appeared before My face, and Gabriel overshadowed Me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within My bosom, bidding Me arise and break My silence."
Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pgs. 101-105
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
God created Bahaullah's Soul, to be like a Mirror, reflecting God's Word and attributes. So, in this sense, Bahaullah had nothing to do with it.


"By My Life! Not of Mine own volition have I revealed Myself, but God, of His own choosing, hath manifested Me."....."Whenever I chose to hold My peace and be still, lo, the Voice of the Holy Spirit, standing on My right hand, aroused Me, and the Most Great Spirit appeared before My face, and Gabriel overshadowed Me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within My bosom, bidding Me arise and break My silence."
Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pgs. 101-105

In the last passage, is all this 'my', 'myself' and 'me' about Baha'u'llah, his son, or his grandson? Sounds like its the grandson talking about himself, and his version of things. But I'm not sure. There are quotes in it. Hard to tell.

If Baha'u'llah had nothing to do with it, God would have been able to appoint Baha'u'llah's som withouit Baha'u'llah being there at all, right?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Loverofhumanity, Im used to if you love god you have a personal relationship with him and vis versa. Assuming you dont believe jesus is god, do you actually experience the love of jesus, bahaullah, muhammad personally because they are manefestations of god?

If not, how are sacred text authority enough to talk for god (remember. Krishna is excluded since hinduism isnt a text oriented religion)?

Yes I have a very personal relationship with all of them. I consider myself their servant in this world. They are the apple of my eye. I defend any One of them when people speak untruthfully or disaparigingly about them.

To me, they are all Rays of One Sun - God. The most misunderstood in the west I believe is Muhammad followed by Buddha then Krishna. I hope to meet all these Manifestations one day in another world and converse with Them.

Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Baha'u'llah, Moses, Christ & the Bab. They all know I stand by Them unflinchingly and have upheld and defended Their truth all my life although They are in no need of me.

So I have a personal relationship with Them all in my innermost being.I cherish Their Words, Their Holy Books and places of worship and see Their followers as my fellow believers.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
In the last passage, is all this 'my', 'myself' and 'me' about Baha'u'llah, his son, or his grandson? Sounds like its the grandson talking about himself, and his version of things. But I'm not sure. There are quotes in it. Hard to tell.
Shoghi Effendy, quoted Bahaullah. This is what Bahaullah wrote, in another Tablet. His grand son, is referring to what Bahaullah wrote.


If Baha'u'llah had nothing to do with it, God would have been able to appoint Baha'u'llah's som withouit Baha'u'llah being there at all, right?
No! How do we know in that case God had appointed Abdulbaha, unless God tells us, He did so. And God does not speak to us, except He spoke to us through His Manifestation, Bahaullah.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why not Vishnu? Vishnu is god. You can learn a lot from Vishnu directly. That, and why Krishna and no other Hindu god? You can learn about Brahman through all Hindu gods and their incarnations. Why just Krishna?

That, and as mentioned, why only the Gita?

Lastly, why depend on the Gita when Hindu retrieve truth from practice instead of relying on a sacred book for knowledge of god?

The Vedas are sacred too. But the last record we have of a Manifestation of God appears in the Bhagavad-Gita as Krishna.

We learn from God through His Manifestations like the earth receives its light and life from the rays of the sun not by the sun descending to the earth which would destroy everything.

Just like the earth cannot sustain the direct descent of the sun, so too, man's soul is unable to directly experience God.

However, the Manifestations are pre existent and Their souls are different to ours and are able to sustain such an event.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Theologically I agree with you...although, inwardly we cannot be sure who truly believe in Jesus, and truly is following the will of His father. That is quite complicated. Jesus Himself said, just because they say to Me 'Lord, Lord', it does not mean they really are believers.

Literally and theologically speaking.

You're confusing some concepts. Probably a lot of it came from The Church. For example:

1. Transubstantiation: The hardcore belief "bread/wine is jesus christ" believed by the Roman Catholic Church.

2. Consubstantiation: The Luther came in and said something more like the bread and wine are united to be the body and blood of jesus christ instead of becoming.

Similarly, they both Roman and Lutheran use the same scriptures from the same book for the same concept.

But here is the problem you have
(and other protestants to)

It's not the terminology. It's not what's literally written in the text.

Christianity is the joining of brothers and sisters (not brothers, sisters, and Bahai) in Christ because in christ (the BODY of the Church), the Mass of people, Christ his literal spirit is made present.

This cannot happen if you don't have the literal life, death, and resurrection. When a Baptist goes to Church (since people hate catholics), in the church I used to go to, we'd come in and chit chat. We would commune with people of like mind. We have our socializing, catching up, this is all part of the church-the body of christ. I can't imagine Christ being so serious that he couldn't drink with his disciples.

After bible study and everyone gather for sermon, the pastor acts a brother to give the word to the congregation.

This union of people, giving the word, once a month communion, eating in fellowship thereafter, bible study, and all of that, these are literal events.

They are Connected to Literal events in the bible. It's a literal event with symbolic meaning. The symbolism enlightens the individual to mirror the literal event so he can experience that event itself.

To say the bible is symbolism, is saying god is symbolic. I don't know how Jews and Muslims see it, but if you told a Catholic or a Baptist that what they experience whether it be joining together to bring christ present with like believers or the actual bible, that it was symbolic, they'd be insulted-I'll just say that.

Logically though, no one else other than the Author can tell us, what He meant. Did the Author meant literally or spiritually? Why, why not... only the Author of the Book Himself can tell us, what was in His mind.

It is literal because we are literal people-flesh and bone. Christianity can be broken down literally. The symbolism you speak of is metaphors and linguistics. Spirituality is a literal event combined with a spiritual message. I mean, JW, for example, may be in denial that they are like Catholics, but they do know their beliefs aren't based on symbolism no more than....

anyway, you see how I go straight back to the people?

Christ is about the people and the father not prophets and not the son. If you do not understand the message through christ (his body), you won't understand christ and as a result, won't understand his father.

Suppose you write a book, with 1000 pages. Different people may have different interpretations of what you mean, and what messages you intend to convey in your book. Who else other than yourself can truly say, what you mean!? Just because a people claim to be your fan, is not a proof, they understand your writings perfectly, does it?

All religions have the people-component. As you witness all on this thread, Hinduis still come together in all their differences and still worship god. There are no if, ands, or buts.

When Catholics come to one Mass (group of people), they have differing beliefs and interpretations. But again, that one unity that makes everyone Christian Catholic or not is communion. Being part of the brothers and sisters of christ.

This is all Literal.

I mean, is god symbolic to you?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why not Vishnu? Vishnu is god. You can learn a lot from Vishnu directly. That, and why Krishna and no other Hindu god? You can learn about Brahman through all Hindu gods and their incarnations. Why just Krishna?

That, and as mentioned, why only the Gita?

Lastly, why depend on the Gita when Hindu retrieve truth from practice instead of relying on a sacred book for knowledge of god?

We learn from God's Manifestations just like the earth receives light and life from the earths rays, not by the direct descent of the sun to the earth which the earth could not sustain.

That is incorrect. Hinduism embraces many sects and a lot of them have texts and believe in Avatars such as Krishna.

You can see here that overall, Hinduism has just as many sacred texts as many other religions in some cases more.

Hindu Scriptures | Hindu Holy Books | Hinduism Facts | Facts about Hindu Religion
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The Vedas are sacred too. But the last record we have of a Manifestation of God appears in the Bhagavad-Gita as Krishna.

We learn from God through His Manifestations like the earth receives its light and life from the rays of the sun not by the sun descending to the earth which would destroy everything.

Just like the earth cannot sustain the direct descent of the sun, so too, man's soul is unable to directly experience God.

However, the Manifestations are pre existent and Their souls are different to ours and are able to sustain such an event.

1. If one book is sacred they should all be sacred since Hinduism is vast probably more than christianity.

So, why not Vishnu or another Hindu god?

Would it make a difference if it were a Hindu god you never heard of nor written in any Hindu scripture you came across?

Also,

Why depend on Hindu scripture for your truth instead of practicing Hinduism and becoming a Hindu yourself?

I mean, I can talk about Catholics all day, but because I experienced what it meant to be a Catholic, all the anti-catholic hogwash flies off my shoulders. But if you haven't experience that said religion regardless of what it is,

either you can learn the facts about it from that faith or give them credit for the truth or leave their gods and prophets alone.

I know you can't do that but it would help with less "wars" when we work together by understanding our differences rather than trying to pick out similarities with a tooth pick.
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
We learn from God's Manifestations just like the earth receives light and life from the earths rays, not by the direct descent of the sun to the earth which the earth could not sustain.

That is incorrect. Hinduism embraces many sects and a lot of them have texts and believe in Avatars such as Krishna.

You can see here that overall, Hinduism has just as many sacred texts as many other religions in some cases more.

Hindu Scriptures | Hindu Holy Books | Hinduism Facts | Facts about Hindu Religion


Here's a good question.

Does Krishna speak for all Hinduism as a part of the unity Bahai believe in?

There are a lot of gods and goddesses, so...

Edit

I see a severe difference between your belief and mine. I depend on the people and experience and you depend on the book and resources.

I can't judge what resources you give me are true unless they are of your particular faith. That's why I rarely quote from Bahaullah text unless I get it off their website and ask you if X is true. I don't assume just because I'm reading about someone else's religion online that it is true in practice and experience.

I can't find authority of spirituality by book and resources. Unless we find a common foundation (if you're seeking unity???), we won't agree.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Would this make it more clear:

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."
- Bahaullah
Excuse me, but this is bigger word salad. It still does not prove the existence of divinity. This is how things were formed: Big Bang nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Vedas are sacred too. But the last record we have of a Manifestation of God appears in the Bhagavad-Gita as Krishna.

We learn from God through His Manifestations like the earth receives its light and life from the rays of the sun not by the sun descending to the earth which would destroy everything.

By 'we' in the second sentence you mean Baha'i', right?

So the Agamas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, etc. are just left without any comment at all, right? So the stance is 'no stance'.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Does Krishna speak for all Hinduism as a part of the unity Bahai believe in?
Let us face the fact. BhagawadGita was written a little before the beginning of Christian era (Scholars accept dates from the fifth century to the second century BCE as the probable range. - Wikipedia). We do not know who wrote it. It is valued not because a God (Krishna) spoke to his friend (Arjuna) in the midst of a battle field (Mahabharata war). That is mythology and story-telling. It is valued because it gives excellent advice about how humans should act, especially when their duty conflicts with other considerations.

It is a sectoral scripture, that is why the emphasis is on Krishna and not on Shiva or the Mother Goddess. But what it says (except for the Krishna part) is applicable to every one, not just Hindus but anyone who happens to read it.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Let us face the fact. BhagawadGita was written a little before the beginning of Christian era (Scholars accept dates from the fifth century to the second century BCE as the probable range. - Wikipedia). We do not know who wrote it. It is valued not because a God (Krishna) spoke to his friend (Arjuna) in the midst of a battle field (Mahabharata war). That is mythology and story-telling. It is valued because it gives excellent advice about how humans should act, especially when their duty conflicts with other considerations.

It is a sectoral scripture, that is why the emphasis is on Krishna and not on Shiva or the Mother Goddess. But what it says (except for the Krishna part) is applicable to every one, not just Hindus but anyone who happens to read it.

Just to add ... But since it's a Hindu test, it speaks about Hinduism. The concepts in it are Hindu concepts, not Baha'i' concepts, not Christian concepts, not Islamic concepts. Of course many of those concepts are applicable to anyone, because it's got a lot of loving concepts that are likely true for many religions. But it wouldn't be fair to reinterpret it to suit someone else's agenda.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yeah, but you know I am an atheist Hindu. When someone talks about divinity, I ask for proof (and they have nothing other than word salad). :D

Lots of that in here. If you're prepared to read 251 pages and counting, you'll see what I mean, lol. Of course there is no proof for divinity or for lack of divinity. It's all opinions, and quite a few of them at that. Of course as usual the word 'facts' gets tossed in there as a synonym for 'opinion' on certain occasions, mainly just for effect, I suppose. Most people who own a dictionary can know that 'facts' isn't the same as 'opinion', but apparently ownership of a dictionary by no means reading it or understanding it. 'Truth' is another synonym used for 'opinion'. But hey, it's a diverse world.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, I agree, it is a diverse world. And all truth is but an opinion. Even the scientific one, because we have not yet completed the journey. We are on road. :D
 
Last edited:
Top