Homosexuals in the Catholic Church

[Saint Frankenstein]

At the risk of starting my rant on the RCC...lol I'll agree with you there.
There is a lot of beauty and richness that I miss there. But, it needs reform. Serious reform.

Definitely! You just can't let flawed human beings get between you and the astonishing beauty of it. Despite my issues with some of it, my heart just can't let go.

 

[kepha31]

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals47 and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.48 Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973.

Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals.49

Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight.50 Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five.51

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers).52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.53

Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54

There is not one bit of this that can be attributed to homosexuality.

Every bit of it comes from medical and social journals, not religious ones, and all of it is attributed to homosexuality. And there is more if you read the link and foot notes.

What it can be attributed to is the damage done to gay youth by the homophobic environment that they grow up in. The RCC is hugely responsible for that toxic environment.

If that were true, and the information came from biased sources, you might have a legitimate objection. But you don't. The Church is not to blame for guilty consciences, any more than she would be blamed for the guilt of a husband cheating on his wife. There is nothing homophobic about the Church's teaching on homosexuality, the problem is that gay radicals avoid finding out what they are.

"...the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).
full text: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

So you are dead wrong about blaming the Church for creating a toxic environment.

Move beyond the confines of the homosexual label to a more complete identity in Christ. (a Church approved ministry.)


Tom[/QUOTE]

 

[columbus]

Yet more proof that the RCC is a primitive organization, capable of great evil.
Tom

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Church is not against gays. That is a myth propagated by Gay Marxists. The Church's teaching is very compassionate and reasonable, for those who bother to find out what it is. There are lots of gays in the Church. What the Church is opposed to is doing gay things. It's wrong because it's against the natural order. You can argue all day about the <1% born with genetic dispositions, but some alcoholics can also be born with a genetic disposition to alcoholism, but that does not mean we should endorse them to consume unhealthy amounts of alcohol.

Claiming homosexual behavior is harmless is not realistic.

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals47 and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.48 Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973.

Let’s just examine your 2 first claims here, by actual reading the cited studies, shall we?

C. Bagley and P. Tremblay, "Suicidal Behaviors in Homosexual and Bisexual Males," Crisis 18 (1997): 24-34.

“The predominant reason for the suicidality of these young males may be linked to the process of "coming out," especially for those who currently have high levels of depression. These results underscore the need for qualified services rarely available to homosexually oriented youth.” …

“There is some evidence that gay, bisexual, and lesbian youth have been ill-served by conventional mental health and counseling agencies, are a reflection perhaps of the “don’t ask, don’t tell” ethos concerning homosexuality in North America. At the New York Institutefor the Protection of Gay and Lesbian Youth for example, the situation of nine young people receiving therapy elsewhere for their suicide attempt was describedas follows: “[They] had not yet told their therapist either that they were homosexual or that that was a factor in their suicide attempt” [Martin & Hetrick, 1988,p.173]. These and other findings suggest that mental health professionals are poorly educated and trained about homosexual realities [Murphy 1992; Kourany,1987], and that these issues continue to be ignored in most universities. At Vancouver’s University of BritishColumbia, for example, homosexual realities are notincluded in counselor training[Abrams,1996],in spiteof Vancouver having the largest gay and lesbian com-munity in western Canada. Homosexual youth are also often misunderstood and indeed harmed in substance abuse treatment programs [Simpson, 1994]. Substance abuse is a commonproblem among gay and bisexual male youth having coming out problems, especially stigmatization andhatred, and the low self-esteem that can result [Shifrin& Solis, 1992]. Remafedi et al. [1991] reported on the basis of a multiple logistic regression analysis that illicit drug use was one of the three most important factorsimplicated in the suicide attempts of gay and bisexual male youth, with age of self-identification and gendernonconformity being the other two.Gay and bisexual male youth have been at risk for a number of negative life experiences that are potentially linked to suicidal crises, including being physically, verbally, and emotionally abused in families, schools, and society; manifesting declining academicachievement and truancy; becoming throwaways,runaways, street youth, and delinquents; engaging inprostitution for survival purposes or as a way to act outlearned negative stereotypes; and not being able to access qualified services when needed; or worse, being psychologically abused or neglected by professionals entrusted to help them [Remafedi, 1987; Boyer, 1989;Gibson, 1989; Hunter, 1990; Kruks, 1991; Remafedi etal.,1991;Galst,1992;AmericanAcademyofPediatrics,1993; Savin-Williams, 1994; Pilkington.”
________________________________________________________


So it appears the problem of suicide in the gay and bisexual community is a result of the poor way these people are treated by their peers and others in the societies they live in. Same goes for the next study you cited, apparently:

R. A. Garofalo et al., "The Associations Between Health Risk Behaviors and Sexual Orientation Among a School-Based Sample of Adolescents," Pediatrics 101 (1998): 895-902.

“GLB youth were more likely than their peers to have been victimized and threatened and to have been engaged in a variety of risk behaviors including suicidal ideation and attempts, multiple substance use, and sexual risk behaviors.”

“Gay, lesbian and bisexual (GLB) adolescents face tremendous challenges growing up physically and mentally healthy in a culture that is often unaccepting. Medical, sociological and psychological research indicates that these youths face rejection, isolation, verbal harassment, and physical violence both at school and at home. According to Jessor’s Problem Behavior Theory, these stresses place GLB adolescents at risk of engaging in individual risk behaviors, clusters of risk behaviors, and initiating behaviors at an earlier age than their peers.”

“Homosexual, bisexual and other adolescents confronting issues of sexual expression or orientation have been identified as facing stresses including emotional isolation, social rejection, and lowered self-esteem. The complex components of sexual orientation, including fantasies, feelings, behaviors, attractions and cultural affiliations, often are quite difficult to manage. These issues challenge many adolescents’ emotional and psychological development and most likely contribute to the risk of developing the syndrome of risk behaviors that Jessor describes.”
_______________________________________________

These are from the studies you cited. So I don’t think you can just brush of the idea that homophobic/toxic environments create psychological, mental and emotional problems for those in the LGBT community. And here you are stating how unnatural homosexuality and bisexuality are while claiming that the Catholic Church’s view is not harmful to the psychological, mental or emotional well-being of people with different sexual orientations.

 

[kepha31]

Let’s just examine your 2 first claims here, by actual reading the cited studies, shall we?

C. Bagley and P. Tremblay, "Suicidal Behaviors in Homosexual and Bisexual Males," Crisis 18 (1997): 24-34.

“The predominant reason for the suicidality of these young males may be linked to the process of "coming out," especially for those who currently have high levels of depression. These results underscore the need for qualified services rarely available to homosexually oriented youth.” …

“There is some evidence that gay, bisexual, and lesbian youth have been ill-served by conventional mental health and counseling agencies, are a reflection perhaps of the “don’t ask, don’t tell” ethos concerning homosexuality in North America. At the New York Institutefor the Protection of Gay and Lesbian Youth for example, the situation of nine young people receiving therapy elsewhere for their suicide attempt was describedas follows: “[They] had not yet told their therapist either that they were homosexual or that that was a factor in their suicide attempt” [Martin & Hetrick, 1988,p.173]. These and other findings suggest that mental health professionals are poorly educated and trained about homosexual realities [Murphy 1992; Kourany,1987], and that these issues continue to be ignored in most universities. At Vancouver’s University of BritishColumbia, for example, homosexual realities are notincluded in counselor training[Abrams,1996],in spiteof Vancouver having the largest gay and lesbian com-munity in western Canada. Homosexual youth are also often misunderstood and indeed harmed in substance abuse treatment programs [Simpson, 1994]. Substance abuse is a commonproblem among gay and bisexual male youth having coming out problems, especially stigmatization andhatred, and the low self-esteem that can result [Shifrin& Solis, 1992]. Remafedi et al. [1991] reported on the basis of a multiple logistic regression analysis that illicit drug use was one of the three most important factorsimplicated in the suicide attempts of gay and bisexual male youth, with age of self-identification and gendernonconformity being the other two.Gay and bisexual male youth have been at risk for a number of negative life experiences that are potentially linked to suicidal crises, including being physically, verbally, and emotionally abused in families, schools, and society; manifesting declining academicachievement and truancy; becoming throwaways,runaways, street youth, and delinquents; engaging inprostitution for survival purposes or as a way to act outlearned negative stereotypes; and not being able to access qualified services when needed; or worse, being psychologically abused or neglected by professionals entrusted to help them [Remafedi, 1987; Boyer, 1989;Gibson, 1989; Hunter, 1990; Kruks, 1991; Remafedi etal.,1991;Galst,1992;AmericanAcademyofPediatrics,1993; Savin-Williams, 1994; Pilkington.”
________________________________________________________


So it appears the problem of suicide in the gay and bisexual community is a result of the poor way these people are treated by their peers and others in the societies they live in. Same goes for the next study you cited, apparently:

R. A. Garofalo et al., "The Associations Between Health Risk Behaviors and Sexual Orientation Among a School-Based Sample of Adolescents," Pediatrics 101 (1998): 895-902.

“GLB youth were more likely than their peers to have been victimized and threatened and to have been engaged in a variety of risk behaviors including suicidal ideation and attempts, multiple substance use, and sexual risk behaviors.”

“Gay, lesbian and bisexual (GLB) adolescents face tremendous challenges growing up physically and mentally healthy in a culture that is often unaccepting. Medical, sociological and psychological research indicates that these youths face rejection, isolation, verbal harassment, and physical violence both at school and at home. According to Jessor’s Problem Behavior Theory, these stresses place GLB adolescents at risk of engaging in individual risk behaviors, clusters of risk behaviors, and initiating behaviors at an earlier age than their peers.”

“Homosexual, bisexual and other adolescents confronting issues of sexual expression or orientation have been identified as facing stresses including emotional isolation, social rejection, and lowered self-esteem. The complex components of sexual orientation, including fantasies, feelings, behaviors, attractions and cultural affiliations, often are quite difficult to manage. These issues challenge many adolescents’ emotional and psychological development and most likely contribute to the risk of developing the syndrome of risk behaviors that Jessor describes.”
_______________________________________________

These are from the studies you cited. So I don’t think you can just brush of the idea that homophobic/toxic environments create psychological, mental and emotional problems for those in the LGBT community. And here you are stating how unnatural homosexuality and bisexuality are while claiming that the Catholic Church’s view is not harmful to the psychological, mental or emotional well-being of people with different sexual orientations.

Yes. I admit the citations were compiled from a Catholic source, which I posted but none of the citations are from Catholic sources. Here it is again: Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
Medical and social journals DESCRIBE the plight of LGBT, They give data but none of them point the finger at the Catholic Church as being a cause. But no, you didn't rail against them. See post 42 and critique the links presented, and spare me the non sequitur:
LGBT's suffer in society.
Society has churches in it.
Therefore churches cause suffering of LGBT's.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes. I admit the citations were compiled from a Catholic source, which I posted but none of the citations are from Catholic sources. Here it is again: Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
Medical and social journals DESCRIBE the plight of LGBT, They give data but none of them point the finger at the Catholic Church as being a cause. But no, you didn't rail against them. See post 42 and critique the links presented, and spare me the non sequitur:
LGBT's suffer in society.
Society has churches in it.
Therefore churches cause suffering of LGBT's.

I just critiqued the first of your two links, which seem to contradict to a certain extent your claims about gay and bisexual people.

The authors of those articles posited discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure, among all the other things listed in the quotes I provided, as the cause for the plight of the LGBT community, from those links you gave. You completely ignored them here for some reason and told me to look at your links, which is exactly what I did in the post you were responding to.

 

[kepha31]

I just critiqued the first of your two links, which seem to contradict to a certain extent your claims about gay and bisexual people.

The authors of those articles posited discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure, among all the other things listed in the quotes I provided, as the cause for the plight of the LGBT community, from those links you gave. You completely ignored them here for some reason and told me to look at your links, which is exactly what I did in the post you were responding to.

I didn't ignore the journals, I acknowledged them, and none of them blame the Catholic Church the way you do.

"They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."​

That's right from the catechism. It contradicts the Gay Marxist agenda and you don't like it.
"discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure, among all the other things listed" have changed in the last 20 years since those articles were written. We have gay movies, gays in television commercials, gay sit coms, etc. We have anti-bullying programs in just about every school, and we have Christians of every stripe losing court battles over stupid things like wedding cakes and hall rentals. Yet the suicide rate remains the same in spite of greater social acceptance. The "discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure" argument doesn't carry the same weight anymore. I don't deny it exists, I deny your false accusation of blaming the Church for it. (I do not speak for barbaric fundamentalists) The Church is not anti-gay like the Gay Marxists want her to appear, or we wouldn't have church approved ministries like Courage.
Nasty, lonely and short lives, shown by statistics no matter where you look, is anything but "gay". I think LGBT's have a right to live just like everybody else, and so does the Church which I am proud to be a member.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't ignore the journals, I acknowledged them, and none of them blame the Catholic Church the way you do.

"They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."

That's right from the catechism. It contradicts the Gay Marxist agenda and you don't like it.

Sorry, I don’t know anything about any gay Marxist agenda. Sounds silly and made up to me.

I didn’t blame the Catholic Church alone for it, but I would say that some of the attitudes held by the church do contribute to the victimization of members of the LGBT community.

Maybe you should have continued reading down the rest of the page, because they also say this:

“While the Church does recognize homosexuality as disordered, this does not mean that the Church is uncompassionate to those who suffer from the disorder. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies . . . must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."3

We have to remember that all people are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated as such, no matter what their behavior. We make a distinction between person and behavior, sometimes expressed as "hate the sin, love the sinner." The Catechism describes homosexual acts as "intrinsically disordered": "They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."4

So we deplore acts of discrimination or unkindness against homosexual persons, but we insist on speaking the truth about the nature of homosexual acts. This is not a phobia. It is compassion together with frank recognition of the nature of a disordered condition.

The Catholic Church opposes homosexual activity because it is intrinsically disordered, an abuse of our human nature. But legalizing same-sex marriage would also have harmful effects on society, as we will see in the remainder of this special report.”
_________________________________________________-

So basically they’re saying, “these people are sick and ‘intrinsically disordered,’ and they aren’t capable of participating in affectionate, complementary relationships and we insist on reminding them and pointing out how messed up they are, but we won’t be unkind or disrespectful to them as people.” And LGBT people are supposed to take this as a positive message? They’re saying straight up, “You guys are different from everyone else, and there’s something wrong with you.” Do you think it makes people feel good about themselves? “Yay the church thinks we’re sick perverts, but they say they won’t be mean to us!” Don’t you see the contradictory nature of those statements?

"discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure, among all the other things listed" have changed in the last 20 years since those articles were written.

Not enough then, obviously.

We have gay movies, gays in television commercials, gay sit coms, etc.

There are some, yes. And inevitably the airing of such things results in some kind of uproar from people who don’t agree with “gay lifestyles” and the like.

We have anti-bullying programs in just about every school, and we have Christians of every stripe losing court battles over stupid things like wedding cakes and hall rentals.

You mean Christians of every stripe losing court battles for discriminating against people? Aww those poor Christians.

Yet the suicide rate remains the same in spite of greater social acceptance.

Has it? If it has, then we obviously still have a problem on our hands.

The "discrimination, peer pressure, societal pressure" argument doesn't carry the same weight anymore.

And yet you’re citing cases where Christians want to refuse service to people in the LGBT community. Guess we haven’t come far enough now have we?

I don't deny it exists, I deny your false accusation of blaming the Church for it. (I do not speak for barbaric fundamentalists) The Church is not anti-gay like the Gay Marxists want her to appear, or we wouldn't have church approved ministries like Courage.

EnCourage is not a bad start, but they state on their website that they hold the “orthodox position on the immorality of homosexual acts even as it respects the human dignity of persons who have homosexual feelings,” while “fostering personal chastity and sexual abstinence,” for LGBT members. Does a life of personal chastity and sexual abstinence sound fulfilling? Not to me. It doesn’t sound like they have a right to live “just like everybody else.” It sounds like the Catholic Church thinks they should live a life unlike most everybody else. I guess it’s a plus that they don’t try to force people to change their sexual orientation (or they’ve realized that doesn’t work). But this is exactly the kind of attitude we’re talking about that is harmful to peoples’ sense of self-worth.

Nasty, lonely and short lives, shown by statistics no matter where you look, is anything but "gay". I think LGBT's have a right to live just like everybody else, and so does the Church which I am proud to be a member.

Maybe their lives are “nasty” because of attitudes like yours. Maybe they’re “lonely” because the Catholic Church (among many others) seems to think they need to live lonely, celibate lives. Did that ever occur to you?

As to your claim about their “short lives”:

“Over the past few months we have learnt of a number of reports regarding a paper we published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the gay and bisexual life expectancy in Vancouver in the late 1980s and early 1990s.1 From these reports it appears that our research is being used by select groups in US2 and Finland3 to suggest that gay and bisexual men live an unhealthy lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others. These homophobic groups appear more interested in restricting the human rights of gay and bisexuals rather than promoting their health and well being.

The aim of our research was never to spread more homophobia, but to demonstrate to an international audience how the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men can be estimated from limited vital statistics data.

In our paper, we demonstrated that in a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continued, we estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years would not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre were experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by men in Canada in the year 1871. In contrast, if we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. Deaths from HIV infection have declined dramatically in this population since 1996. As we have previously reported there has been a threefold decrease in mortality in Vancouver as well as in other parts of British Columbia.4

Gay life expectancy revisited

____________________________
This one is in direct response to the Cameron study cited in your link:

"Obituaries in gay community newspapers do not provide a representative sampling of the community. This is evident in the fact that only only 2% of the Cameron group's obituaries were for lesbians. Moreover, community newspapers tend overwhelmingly to report deaths due to AIDS (only 11% of Cameron's gay male obituaries were not related to AIDS). In addition, community newspapers tend not to print obituaries for people who are not actively involved in the local gay community, those who are in the closet, and those whose loved ones simply don't submit an obituary to a local gay newspaper.

The Cameron group's gay obituary study reports many numbers and statistics. However, they are absolutely worthless for estimating the life expectancy of gay men and lesbians.”

Critique of "Obituary Study" by the Paul Cameron Group
______________________________________________________

And then there’s this:

“In the first study to look at the consequences of anti-gay prejudice for mortality, researchers at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) individuals who lived in communities with high levels of anti-gay prejudice have a shorter life expectancy of 12 years on average compared with their peers in the least prejudiced communities. "The results of this study suggest a broadening of the consequences of prejudice to include premature death," noted the study's lead author, Mark Hatzenbuehler, PhD, assistant professor of Sociomedical Sciences. The study is online in the journal Social Science & Medicine.”

LGB individuals living in anti-gay communities die early | EurekAlert! Science News

______________________________________________________
So it appears that once again discrimination and prejudice are responsible for the “nasty, short lives” of these people.

Maybe the "gay Marxists" are right after all! Whoever they are.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I remember I told my Godmother that I'm a trans man and she recommended Courage to me. I was very hurt. Apparently she was conflating being trans with being gay. I no longer have any contact with her. Thankfully, I'm not the only LGBT Catholic who accepts themselves and we do have Catholic allies.

 

[kepha31]

Sorry, I don’t know anything about any gay Marxist agenda. Sounds silly and made up to me.

I didn’t blame the Catholic Church alone for it, but I would say that some of the attitudes held by the church do contribute to the victimization of members of the LGBT community.

Maybe you should have continued reading down the rest of the page, because they also say this:

“While the Church does recognize homosexuality as disordered, this does not mean that the Church is uncompassionate to those who suffer from the disorder. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies . . . must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."3

We have to remember that all people are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated as such, no matter what their behavior. We make a distinction between person and behavior, sometimes expressed as "hate the sin, love the sinner." The Catechism describes homosexual acts as "intrinsically disordered": "They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."4

So we deplore acts of discrimination or unkindness against homosexual persons, but we insist on speaking the truth about the nature of homosexual acts. This is not a phobia. It is compassion together with frank recognition of the nature of a disordered condition.

The Catholic Church opposes homosexual activity because it is intrinsically disordered, an abuse of our human nature. But legalizing same-sex marriage would also have harmful effects on society, as we will see in the remainder of this special report.”
_________________________________________________-

So basically they’re saying, “these people are sick and ‘intrinsically disordered,’ and they aren’t capable of participating in affectionate, complementary relationships and we insist on reminding them and pointing out how messed up they are, but we won’t be unkind or disrespectful to them as people.” And LGBT people are supposed to take this as a positive message? They’re saying straight up, “You guys are different from everyone else, and there’s something wrong with you.” Do you think it makes people feel good about themselves? “Yay the church thinks we’re sick perverts, but they say they won’t be mean to us!” Don’t you see the contradictory nature of those statements?



Not enough then, obviously.



There are some, yes. And inevitably the airing of such things results in some kind of uproar from people who don’t agree with “gay lifestyles” and the like.



You mean Christians of every stripe losing court battles for discriminating against people? Aww those poor Christians.


Has it? If it has, then we obviously still have a problem on our hands.



And yet you’re citing cases where Christians want to refuse service to people in the LGBT community. Guess we haven’t come far enough now have we?



EnCourage is not a bad start, but they state on their website that they hold the “orthodox position on the immorality of homosexual acts even as it respects the human dignity of persons who have homosexual feelings,” while “fostering personal chastity and sexual abstinence,” for LGBT members. Does a life of personal chastity and sexual abstinence sound fulfilling? Not to me. It doesn’t sound like they have a right to live “just like everybody else.” It sounds like the Catholic Church thinks they should live a life unlike most everybody else. I guess it’s a plus that they don’t try to force people to change their sexual orientation (or they’ve realized that doesn’t work). But this is exactly the kind of attitude we’re talking about that is harmful to peoples’ sense of self-worth.

Maybe their lives are “nasty” because of attitudes like yours. Maybe they’re “lonely” because the Catholic Church (among many others) seems to think they need to live lonely, celibate lives. Did that ever occur to you?

As to your claim about their “short lives”:

“Over the past few months we have learnt of a number of reports regarding a paper we published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the gay and bisexual life expectancy in Vancouver in the late 1980s and early 1990s.1 From these reports it appears that our research is being used by select groups in US2 and Finland3 to suggest that gay and bisexual men live an unhealthy lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others. These homophobic groups appear more interested in restricting the human rights of gay and bisexuals rather than promoting their health and well being.

The aim of our research was never to spread more homophobia, but to demonstrate to an international audience how the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men can be estimated from limited vital statistics data.

In our paper, we demonstrated that in a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continued, we estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years would not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre were experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by men in Canada in the year 1871. In contrast, if we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. Deaths from HIV infection have declined dramatically in this population since 1996. As we have previously reported there has been a threefold decrease in mortality in Vancouver as well as in other parts of British Columbia.4

Gay life expectancy revisited

____________________________
This one is in direct response to the Cameron study cited in your link:

"Obituaries in gay community newspapers do not provide a representative sampling of the community. This is evident in the fact that only only 2% of the Cameron group's obituaries were for lesbians. Moreover, community newspapers tend overwhelmingly to report deaths due to AIDS (only 11% of Cameron's gay male obituaries were not related to AIDS). In addition, community newspapers tend not to print obituaries for people who are not actively involved in the local gay community, those who are in the closet, and those whose loved ones simply don't submit an obituary to a local gay newspaper.

The Cameron group's gay obituary study reports many numbers and statistics. However, they are absolutely worthless for estimating the life expectancy of gay men and lesbians.”

Critique of "Obituary Study" by the Paul Cameron Group
______________________________________________________

And then there’s this:

“In the first study to look at the consequences of anti-gay prejudice for mortality, researchers at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) individuals who lived in communities with high levels of anti-gay prejudice have a shorter life expectancy of 12 years on average compared with their peers in the least prejudiced communities. "The results of this study suggest a broadening of the consequences of prejudice to include premature death," noted the study's lead author, Mark Hatzenbuehler, PhD, assistant professor of Sociomedical Sciences. The study is online in the journal Social Science & Medicine.”

LGB individuals living in anti-gay communities die early | EurekAlert! Science News

______________________________________________________
So it appears that once again discrimination and prejudice are responsible for the “nasty, short lives” of these people.

Maybe the "gay Marxists" are right after all! Whoever they are.

Discrimination and prejudice are not responsible alone. It is the gay lifestyle itself that often has fatal consequences. You seem to be ignoring this. The Church doesn't inflict rectal cancer and disproportionate STD's. The truth is not always agreeable. "intrinsically disordered" is the truth and you don't like it. You can argue all day, but getting poop on ones dick is NOT normal. A daddy + a daddy, or a mommy + a mommy, cannot make a baby. It is not life giving.

Nevertheless, what bothers me is falsely accusing the Church of discrimination and prejudice, as if she was the engine driving the public world view. Fat chance. There may be some Catholics who are narrow minded insensitive bigots, but that is not the teaching of the Church.

uCatholic | Pope Francis Reportedly Grants Private Audience To Transgendered Man

 

[SkepticThinker]

Discrimination and prejudice are not responsible alone. It is the gay lifestyle itself that often has fatal consequences. You seem to be ignoring this. The Church doesn't inflict rectal cancer and disproportionate STD's.

So you view a "gay lifestyle" as mere sexual behavior? What exactly do you mean by that?

The truth is not always agreeable. "intrinsically disordered" is the truth and you don't like it.

That's not the truth, that's the opinion of the Catholic Church and apparently of yourself. That doesn't make it truth.

You can argue all day, but getting poop on ones dick is NOT normal.

Ahh, so there it is. A very telling statement. You find it icky. That's your problem. I bet I can find a person who thinks what you do in bed is icky. So what?

I don't know any women with dicks at all, never mind women with poop on their dick. So what's your argument against lesbians?

If this is what you think being gay is all about, all I can say is that I feel sorry for your ignorance.

A daddy + a daddy, or a mommy + a mommy, cannot make a baby. It is not life giving.

So what? And what does this have to do with anything?

Nevertheless, what bothers me is falsely accusing the Church of discrimination and prejudice, as if she was the engine driving the public world view. Fat chance. There may be some Catholics who are narrow minded insensitive bigots, but that is not the teaching of the Church.

uCatholic | Pope Francis Reportedly Grants Private Audience To Transgendered Man

I used their own words. The very words that you provided. I didn't falsely accuse anyone of anything. I also didn't say they are the engine driving the public world view. In fact I made a point to say they aren't the only ones to blame for the way society treats LGBT people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Discrimination and prejudice are not responsible alone. It is the gay lifestyle itself that often has fatal consequences. You seem to be ignoring this. The Church doesn't inflict rectal cancer and disproportionate STD's. The truth is not always agreeable. "intrinsically disordered" is the truth and you don't like it. You can argue all day, but getting poop on ones dick is NOT normal. A daddy + a daddy, or a mommy + a mommy, cannot make a baby. It is not life giving.

There is no "gay lifestyle". Being gay is a sexual orientation, not a "lifestyle". Gays are individuals like straight people and don't have the same likes, enjoy the same sexual activities, etc. They're human beings like everyone else.

Nevertheless, what bothers me is falsely accusing the Church of discrimination and prejudice, as if she was the engine driving the public world view. Fat chance. There may be some Catholics who are narrow minded insensitive bigots, but that is not the teaching of the Church.

I think you need a mirror.

[uCatholic | Pope Francis Reportedly Grants Private Audience To Transgendered Man

Kudos to the Pope. Shame on that ignorant article.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is no "gay lifestyle". Being gay is a sexual orientation, not a "lifestyle". Gays are individuals like straight people and don't have the same likes, enjoy the same sexual activities, etc. They're human beings like everyone else.



I think you need a mirror.


Kudos to the Pope. Shame on that ignorant article.

This ^^^

 

[chlotilde]

Being gay is a sexual orientation, not a "lifestyle".

they are if you are like me and believe all sexuality is a choice (yes, even heterosexuality)

 

[Christ's Lamb]

So much is said about what the Catholic Church doesn't do and does do with regard to gender and sexuality. There is still much discussion to be had.....but one thing is certain, homosexuals do exist within the walls of the Church that are loyal to the Church. That includes many priest and nuns as well. I know a close gay friend of mine (who is not Catholic) who finds Catholic homosexuals that are loyal to the Church's teachings as impostors and are only avoiding the inevitable reality.

Here are some of those Catholics who are gay, but simply love their Catholics faith more (agree or disagree, it's a great watch):

Blackstone Films | The Third Way

I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but I have chosen to make my voice heard.

Homosexuality is a sin. Why? Sex is sacred, but why is sex sacred? During sex, one co-creates with God to bring new life into the world. One who has sex solely for personal pleasure is abusing this wonderful God-given gift. Homosexual sex does not produce offspring, therefore it is simply for one's own pleasure.

This is what the Catholic Church, Christ's Church, teaches and has always taught. St. Paul tells us to hold to the traditions which we were taught (2Thessalonians 2:15), thus it is what I hold too. If one claims to be Catholic and does not follow what the church teaches, they are not true members of the church because they reject some teachings of our Blessed Lord. I hold to this teaching, not because I hate homosexuals, because I don't, but because it is abusing the glorious gift of co-creating with God to bring new life into existence. This is why I believe what I believe and will always believe to the very last breath I take in this world.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but I have chosen to make my voice heard.

Homosexuality is a sin. Why? Sex is sacred, but why is sex sacred? During sex, one co-creates with God to bring new life into the world. One who has sex solely for personal pleasure is abusing this wonderful God-given gift. Homosexual sex does not produce offspring, therefore it is simply for one's own pleasure.

This is what the Catholic Church, Christ's Church, teaches and has always taught. St. Paul tells us to hold to the traditions which we were taught (2Thessalonians 2:15), thus it is what I hold too. If one claims to be Catholic and does not follow what the church teaches, they are not true members of the church because they reject some teachings of our Blessed Lord. I hold to this teaching, not because I hate homosexuals, because I don't, but because it is abusing the glorious gift of co-creating with God to bring new life into existence. This is why I believe what I believe and will always believe to the very last breath I take in this world.

So do you also believe then, that it is sinful for two heterosexuals who cannot produce children to be in a relationship together?

 

[SkepticThinker]

they are if you are like me and believe all sexuality is a choice (yes, even heterosexuality)

Why do you believe this?

 

[Christ's Lamb]

So do you also believe then, that it is sinful for two heterosexuals who cannot produce children to be in a relationship together?

Not the relationship itself, but sex for pleasure. All sex must be open to reproduction purposes only.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not the relationship itself, but sex for pleasure. All sex must be open to reproduction purposes only.

That sounds like a pretty bleak life to me.

So things like pair bonding and intimacy between loving couples have no role to play at all?

 

[Christ's Lamb]

That sounds like a pretty bleak life to me.

So things like pair bonding and intimacy between loving couples have no role to play at all?

Couples can bound and have intimacy in other ways besides having sex. It would actually help a lot of marrages these days by having a relationship like this. It must be true love, because it certaintly wouldn't be about the sex lol.