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Homosexuals in the Catholic Church

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
I also have reservations that those interviewed were who they presented themselves to be; the one female who made mention of leaving or returning to the "gay lifestyle" causes me to wonder this, as in this day and age, most gays find the term "lifestyle" inaccurate or downright offensive.

I think the film is propagating long debunked myths about homosexuality in a subtle but powerful method.

It is offensive, not because its inaccurate, but because its a lifestyle as a result of modern culture, not because we adhere to it and call it a culture of our own. It will change over time. That's probably why though.
 
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Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
If you're not arguing against.......

This thread was meant to inform and show another side that many people aren't aware of. Not to put forth an argument......if you wish to debate with regard to Natural Law and how flawed it is...........I'm game. But not here.

Start it in the one vs. one debate if you wish.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
This thread was meant to inform and show another side that many people aren't aware of. Not to put forth an argument......if you wish to debate with regard to Natural Law and how flawed it is...........I'm game. But not here.

Start it in the one vs. one debate if you wish.

Oh, good point since this is a DIR. Oops. :eek:
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Or............maybe...........just maybe.........these are real people.

Maybe they are. I didn't say otherwise. In fact, what I did say was that I, personally, had reservations; indicating I am not convinced one way or the other.

But given that you are inclined to think that religion flat out lies and can't possibly make a valid point;

My comments have nothing to do with Catholocism or Religion in general; my comments are observations regarding this one film and pondering the legitimacy of the alleged gays within the film and/or the methodology used by the producers in determining how the subjects were selected.

what possible dialogue can be made?

As far as gays in the Catholic church, none, nor do I pretend to. However, in terms of passing on information and observations about gays, I have far more to offer in this area than you.

Why are all the gays in the film traumatized? While there are gays who have been traumatized, there are many who have not been. Trauma is not a prerequisite for gayness.

If you are to have meaningful dialog about gays in the church, we must have a clear understanding of what "gays" are to begin with. Without that clear understanding, no one has anything of value to offer.

 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
My comments have nothing to do with Catholocism or Religion in general; my comments are observations regarding this one film and pondering the legitimacy of the alleged gays within the film and/or the methodology used by the producers in determining how the subjects were selected.

"I then researched the production company of the film and noticed that those company is religiously based."

Really?

As far as gays in the Catholic church, none, nor do I pretend to. However, in terms of passing on information and observations about gays, I have far more to offer in this area than you.

Oh boy.......is that so? Tell me, when and where did I indicate to be an expert or pretend to be.

Perhaps you are one? Or does anybody that disagree with you automatically go in the ignorance basket?


Why are all the gays in the film traumatized?

Not all of them were.....:rolleyes:

If you are to have meaningful dialog about gays in the church, we must have a clear understanding of what "gays" are to begin with. Without that clear understanding, no one has anything of value to offer.

They are people, just like me. What more do I need to know?
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
You are making broad assumptions about my character and my motivations that are incorrect.

"I then researched the production company of the film and noticed that those company is religiously based."

Really?



Oh boy.......is that so? Tell me, when and where did I indicate to be an expert or pretend to be.

Perhaps you are one? Or does anybody that disagree with you automatically go in the ignorance basket?

1. I question any organization or group's message when it is clear that this certain group has a particular message or goal. This does not stop at religious groups and extends to groups who's messages I agree with as well. Thus, your assumption that I disagree simply because it is Catholic or Religious is waaaay off the mark. Ancient Aliens, Conspiracy Theorists, television ads, and more are also included in this list. When a group has a certain objective in mind, their messages must be carefully considered, be it from GLAAD or FRC.
2. You did not propose to be an expert on homosexuality, and neither did I accuse you of making such a claim.
3. All of us belong in the "ignorance" basket at one given subject matter or another.

Not all of them were.....:rolleyes:

All of them were traumatized, alienated or ostracized at one point in time in their lives or at another point in time in their lives: Dad screaming b/c he lacked interest in cars, Mom and self being like "ice", feeling alienated from childhood friends; each of them had a sob story to tell. This does not account for the totality of the LGBT population; many (or most) of whom do not have sob stories to tell.

They are people, just like me. What more do I need to know?

This is a laudable sentiment which we can both agree; provided it stops at "They are people, just like me". If it progresses to "They are people, just like me, but they are sick or have emotional problems" then they are no longer "just people, like you".
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
1. I question any organization or group's message when it is clear that this certain group has a particular message or goal. This does not stop at religious groups and extends to groups who's messages I agree with as well. Thus, your assumption that I disagree simply because it is Catholic or Religious is waaaay off the mark. Ancient Aliens, Conspiracy Theorists, television ads, and more are also included in this list. When a group has a certain objective in mind, their messages must be carefully considered, be it from GLAAD or FRC.

You do realize your statement is so broad as to apply to just about any organization and therefore unnecessary to point out that it's "religiously based." And what group of people don't have a message or goal in mind? But so what?

All of them were traumatized, alienated or ostracized at one point in time in their lives or at another point in time in their lives: Dad screaming b/c he lacked interest in cars, Mom and self being like "ice", feeling alienated from childhood friends; each of them had a sob story to tell. This does not account for the totality of the LGBT population; many (or most) of whom do not have sob stories to tell.

And therefore?

This is a laudable sentiment which we can both agree; provided it stops at "They are people, just like me". If it progresses to "They are people, just like me, but they are sick or have emotional problems" then they are no longer "just people, like you".

It really does end there. That was the main point to the video.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
You do realize your statement is so broad as to apply to just about any organization and therefore unnecessary to point out that it's "religiously based." And what group of people don't have a message or goal in mind? But so what?

So what?

So, I do not question because it is Religiously based; I question because the video creators had a goal in mind, thus what is in that video must be evaluated for biasness; and that your specific accusation that my questioning the legitimacy and accuracy of the film simply because it is religiously based was wrong.

I understand you're taking offense, but let it be clear that I do not evaluate all things based solely on religion. For example, I have concluded the statistics by LGBT sympathizers inferring that "same sex marriages last longer" as misrepresentations; but instead, subscribe to Finland's evaluation where they stated (and I paraphrase) that there is not enough sample size or enough time passed from which to reach reliable statistical information or upon which to draw a conclusion.

Thus, my reservations are not based on religion; but based upon my best efforts at objectiveness and critical thinking.

And therefore?

Therefore, as the producers chose to include gays for interviews who had troubled times during their childhood and teen years, I submit the likelihood of biasness and misrepresenting the entirety of the LGBT experience by promoting that these few interviewees reflect that same in its entirety.

As stated: Trauma is not a prerequisite for gayness.

If the discussion about "Gays in the Catholic Church" is launched based on the premise that trauma is a prerequisite for gayness; that all gays are emotionally troubled or traumatized; then the discussion is proceeding on a false pretense.

That's the all that I had to say and the entirety of what I wanted to contribute to this discussion.

My point has been introduced for due consideration; I have nothing more to offer; I shall recuse myself and unsubscribe from this thread.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
So what?

So, I do not question because it is Religiously based; I question because the video creators had a goal in mind, thus what is in that video must be evaluated for biasness; and that your specific accusation that my questioning the legitimacy and accuracy of the film simply because it is religiously based was wrong.

I understand you're taking offense, but let it be clear that I do not evaluate all things based solely on religion. For example, I have concluded the statistics by LGBT sympathizers inferring that "same sex marriages last longer" as misrepresentations; but instead, subscribe to Finland's evaluation where they stated (and I paraphrase) that there is not enough sample size or enough time passed from which to reach reliable statistical information or upon which to draw a conclusion.

Thus, my reservations are not based on religion; but based upon my best efforts at objectiveness and critical thinking.

I appreciate the effort (as we all should), and I believe you in what you say, but you really should have worded it differently. I mean, tell me, what human or group of people do you know that is not bias? People naturally have presuppositions, feelings, and all sorts of neuro-associations to ideas, beliefs, symbols, etc. It's just natural to do so. All we can do is do what you are doing; remain objective. But even then, people can be objectively wrong when reading into motives and sincerity. One person do you know that comes to religion and says "nothing is wrong with me". It's ludicrous to expect anything else but that. Not to mention the fact that Christianity is all about facing your demons and working inwardly constantly. It's not necessarily apples to apples comparison when looking at people who are not religious and don't see anything wrong with a,b, and c. Then again, the suicide in the gay community is high, even among societies that have fully embraced said lifestyle. So what exactly are we looking at?

Therefore, as the producers chose to include gays for interviews who had troubled times during their childhood and teen years, I submit the likelihood of biasness and misrepresenting the entirety of the LGBT experience by promoting that these few interviewees reflect that same in its entirety.

As stated: Trauma is not a prerequisite for gayness.

Of course it's not. But I don't think these people were chosen because of their trauma but because they disagreed with the Church at one point and lived the lifestyle. Would you of preferred a jolly priest that's been gay and Catholic all his life? Would you scream bias then? Of course you would.

If the discussion about "Gays in the Catholic Church" is launched based on the premise that trauma is a prerequisite for gayness; that all gays are emotionally troubled or traumatized; then the discussion is proceeding on a false pretense.

That's the all that I had to say and the entirety of what I wanted to contribute to this discussion.

My point has been introduced for due consideration; I have nothing more to offer; I shall recuse myself and unsubscribe from this thread.

Ok.....thanks for the chat. :)
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
That is a uniquely refreshing response. And not because it leans more toward what I agree with, but because it is not in vogue and contrarian. Well said.

Did you watch the video?

I finally got a chance to watch it. Of course, it was well produced.

The message was an improvement over what's been taught for many centuries. I can well remember much of what the guys described from my own past. The church was absolutely no help to me or anyone I know who grew up when I did. Quite the contrary, it supported the bigots. That one guy who apologized for having taken part in it seemed sincere. But I have trouble imagining it going beyond the safety of video production, not that I have any way of knowing.

The whole thing struck me as a slick sales job. "Come to us, we promise not to burn you at the stake any more". They're going to have to do a lot more reaching out than that to undo the damage the guy and people like him did.

Frankly, it's not just a day late and a dollar short. That would have been true a few decades ago. Now it continues to fall behind the curve of secular morality because more and more people are realizing that marriage, including sex if the partners want it, is where we are headed. The dark side of expecting people, who are essentially sexual creatures for the most part, to accept chastity in exchange for acceptance is all too clear. People see the damage done by the pedophilia disaster, and correctly place part of the blame on these teachings of the church. It is not reasonable to expect millions of people to accept chastity without a fair number falling into far worse behavior than just finding a spouse and committing to them. Especially if they became "disordered" as young people who find acceptance difficult to get.

Eventually the Christian community as a whole is going to come to the realization that God made some people gay and they are better off in stable relationships than not, just like most everybody else. And Lev 20:13 will go the way of prohibitions on pork and women speaking in church and such.

I do see Jesus Message differently than those people do, that's why I am a non-theist.;)

Also, gay people need to clean up their own acts. I am commonly appalled by the behavior I see. Mostly by men, although I am a guy so maybe I just know more about that.

Tom
 

kepha31

Active Member
If you're not arguing against something on the grounds that it's harmful, then what grounds is there for it be declared wrong? Natural law theory? Well, that's badly flawed, as well.
A pillar of the Catholic set of laws is its understanding of natural moral law, which addresses laws that aren’t written but nevertheless known by all men and women who have the use of reason. It uses basic common sense, prudence, and justice.
Moral law is natural because it’s known by reason — not written in stone or on paper, like the Commandments or the Bible. It’s moral because it applies only to moral acts — actions of human beings that involve a free act of the will. (It doesn’t apply to animals, because they don’t have the use of reason.)
Catholicism and Natural Moral Law - For Dummies

I. THE NATURAL MORAL LAW

1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
1955 The "divine and natural" law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:...
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The moral law
How is this "badly flawed"?

The Church is not against gays. That is a myth propagated by Gay Marxists. The Church's teaching is very compassionate and reasonable, for those who bother to find out what it is. There are lots of gays in the Church. What the Church is opposed to is doing gay things. It's wrong because it's against the natural order. You can argue all day about the <1% born with genetic dispositions, but some alcoholics can also be born with a genetic disposition to alcoholism, but that does not mean we should endorse them to consume unhealthy amounts of alcohol.
Claiming homosexual behavior is harmless is not realistic.

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals47 and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.48 Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973.

Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals.49

Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight.50 Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five.51

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers).52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.53

Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54​

The footnotes refer to professional medical and social journals, if you check the link.
Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
You will never see this information in the media or in schools, because facts can be classed as hate speech in some places.

Courage is an international apostolate of the Catholic Church, which ministers to persons with same-sex attractions.
Courage - Courage
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
A pillar of the Catholic set of laws is its understanding of natural moral law, which addresses laws that aren’t written but nevertheless known by all men and women who have the use of reason. It uses basic common sense, prudence, and justice.
Moral law is natural because it’s known by reason — not written in stone or on paper, like the Commandments or the Bible. It’s moral because it applies only to moral acts — actions of human beings that involve a free act of the will. (It doesn’t apply to animals, because they don’t have the use of reason.)
Catholicism and Natural Moral Law - For Dummies

I. THE NATURAL MORAL LAW

1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
1955 The "divine and natural" law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:...
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The moral law
How is this "badly flawed"?

The Church is not against gays. That is a myth propagated by Gay Marxists. The Church's teaching is very compassionate and reasonable, for those who bother to find out what it is. There are lots of gays in the Church. What the Church is opposed to is doing gay things. It's wrong because it's against the natural order. You can argue all day about the <1% born with genetic dispositions, but some alcoholics can also be born with a genetic disposition to alcoholism, but that does not mean we should endorse them to consume unhealthy amounts of alcohol.
Claiming homosexual behavior is harmless is not realistic.

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals47 and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.48 Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973.

Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals.49

Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight.50 Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five.51

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers).52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.53

Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54​

The footnotes refer to professional medical and social journals, if you check the link.
Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
You will never see this information in the media or in schools, because facts can be classed as hate speech in some places.

Courage is an international apostolate of the Catholic Church, which ministers to persons with same-sex attractions.
Courage - Courage

I know what the Church teaches about this subject and Natural Law philosophy. I know about Courage, etc. So don't act like this is new information that is hard to find. I've been considering this stuff for years. I simply disagree. Those stats are bogus, too. I'm assuming that the life expectancy stat is coming from Paul Cameron's hate screeds cloaked as "research".
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Claiming homosexual behavior is harmless is not realistic.

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals47 and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.48 Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973.

Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals.49

Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight.50 Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five.51

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers).52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.53

Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54

There is not one bit of this that can be attributed to homosexuality.

What it can be attributed to is the damage done to gay youth by the homophobic environment that they grow up in. The RCC is hugely responsible for that toxic environment.

Tom
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I was raised in the Catholic faith, and up until four years ago, I followed it. I simply never cared what the RCC had to say about homosexuality. Homosexuals have every ''right'' to be worshipping as Catholics, as anyone else. I'm interested in Islam, and I will have that same opinion should I decide to convert. I don't think God is all that wrapped up in who is doing what with whom, sexually...so long as it is between consenting parties. Upholding the dignity of others in sexual situations (and in all situations), should always be paramount, but homosexuality to me, is just such an old topic and religion needs to stop railing about it. Just my thoughts, fwiw.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I was raised in the Catholic faith, and up until four years ago, I followed it. I simply never cared what the RCC had to say about homosexuality. They have every ''right'' to be worshipping as Catholics, as anyone else. I'm interested in Islam, and I will have that same opinion should I decide to convert. I don't think God is all that wrapped up in who is doing what with whom, sexually...so long as it is between consenting parties. Upholding the dignity of one others in sexual situations, should always be paramount, but homosexuality to me, is just such an old topic and religion needs to stop railing about it. Just my thoughts, fwiw.

I agree. Much more important issues to worry about in this world. I hate how people make God out to be so petty. I think it's time to remember exactly how HUGE God really is.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I agree. Much more important issues to worry about in this world. I hate how people make God out to be so petty. I think it's time to remember exactly how HUGE God really is.

Yea, so true. When I think of the idea of a god, I don't think he is completely ''knowable.'' All religions try to put him in a neat little box, with an instruction manual of how to deal with him. ;)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Yea, so true. When I think of the idea of a god, I don't think he is completely ''knowable.'' All religions try to put him in a neat little box, with an instruction manual of how to deal with him. ;)

Yeah. Like God is infinite and infinity is not a concept we can even halfway comprehend...but He is so obsessed about what we like to do with our winkies and kitties. No, that's a very human obsession. :rolleyes:
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Like God is infinite and infinity is not a concept we can even halfway comprehend...but He is so obsessed about what we like to do with our winkies and kitties. No, that's a very human obsession. :rolleyes:

haha yep

I've always thought it interesting that mankind always knows what God hates and loves, and it just so happens...it is what the majority of mankind hates and loves. ^_^

I think we can be still be pious and joyful in our beliefs (whatever beliefs/religions those may fall under), and not necessarily adhere to everything a religion preaches about a particular subject.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
haha yep

I've always thought it interesting that mankind always knows what God hates and loves, and it just so happens...it is what the majority of mankind hates and loves. ^_^

I think we can be still be pious and joyful in our beliefs (whatever beliefs/religions those may fall under), and not necessarily adhere to everything a religion preaches about a particular subject.

Bingo. I don't agree with much of the Catholic Church's sexual teachings, but that's not exactly the foundation of the entire religion.
 
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