Homeopathy

[Trailblazer]

The gold standard for establishing whether a medicine works or not is a double blinded randomised control trial. That removes bias from both the person taking the medicine and the one collating the data. It also eliminates the placebo aspect which is in fact a surprisingly important aspect of the effectiveness of any medicine. To date there is no known evidence to my knowledge that a homeopathic remedy works any better than a placebo pill. However placebo pills can have a powerful affect for some people and that’s most likely why homeopathic remedies work for some people who will in turn have strong beliefs about its efficacy.

It is impossible to conduct a double blinded randomised control trial for homeopathic remedies for the reason given by #25 David McCann, who said that “The traditional testing methods are almost impossible to apply to any system of therapy which is patient-specific.”

There is no way that the healing that has occurred with homeopathy is all due to the placebo effect. To say that is highly illogical.

However, I expect you to say this because you are a medical doctor.

The first homeopath I went to was a Baha’i who had practiced conventional medicine for 30 years before he switched his practice over to homeopathy only. The second homeopath I went to had also practiced conventional medicine for many years before he switched his practice over. Both were medical doctors licensed to practice in Washington State and they also prescribed allopathic medicines when necessary.

As I just told Subzone and Penguin, homeopathy works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body and that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

God and Baha’u’llah cannot be proven either. Does that mean they do not have any effect upon the soul? Anything that affects the soul also affects the body since the two are inextricably intertwined.

As I vaguely recall, some members of the UHJ used homeopathy as their primary medical treatment.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body, but that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

The medical establishment in the United States is corrupt. It is all about money. If it wasn’t then it would not cost 10-20 times as much in the United States for the same medical treatment one can get in Central or South America.

That does not mean that there are no good doctors who care about their patients. Most doctors care because they would not have become doctors just for the money when they could have been lawyers and make as much or more money.

I got my degree from the School of Homeopathy in Devon, UK .
The School of Homeopathy - online, correspondance and attendance

It looks like you were taken. You should ask for your $55.00 back.

Check if a university or college is officially recognised

When you spout nonsense such as "stimulating the vital force" you should realize that anyone that understands the sciences at all will merely laugh at you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have a MA in Counseling Psychology.

It's not showing.

Fine, if you consider functionality a worthwhile goal. I considered healing more important than functionality.

Since you have an MA, you should know (including the things I addressed in the other thread) that minimal functionality is the best many psychiatric patients can get, some will need assisted living, and someone will always be borderline functional and one trigger away from a meltdown. There is no cure for bi-polar disorder, but moods can be stabilized. There is no fix for schizophrenia, but we can ameliorate both the positive and negative symptoms.

Again, it depends upon how you define “works.” If all people care about is being happy all the time maybe drugs are the way to go,

Since you have an MA, you should know that psychotropic medications are not "happy pills" and know they do not make people happy.

For people with serious psychological issues, it is just another band aid approach on something that needs surgery.

Since you have an MA, you should know there is no "surgery," not literally or metaphorically. We may find something better in the future, but for now we have we have to work with.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is impossible to conduct a double blinded randomised control trial for homeopathic remedies for the reason given by #25 David McCann, who said that “The traditional testing methods are almost impossible to apply to any system of therapy which is patient-specific.”

There is no way that the healing that has occurred with homeopathy is all due to the placebo effect. To say that is highly illogical.

However, I expect you to say this because you are a medical doctor.

The first homeopath I went to was a Baha’i who had practiced conventional medicine for 30 years before he switched his practice over to homeopathy only. The second homeopath I went to had also practiced conventional medicine for many years before he switched his practice over. Both were medical doctors licensed to practice in Washington State and they also prescribed allopathic medicines when necessary.

As I just told Subzone and Penguin, homeopathy works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body and that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

God and Baha’u’llah cannot be proven either. Does that mean they do not have any effect upon the soul? Anything that affects the soul also affects the body since the two are inextricably intertwined.

As I vaguely recall, some members of the UHJ used homeopathy as their primary medical treatment.

Nonsense, it is rather simple. Take a large group of people. Split them into three groups. One group gets nothing. Another group gets a placebo. The third group gets a homeopathic treatment. Compare results. Odds are that the placebo group will do better than the control. If the homeopathic group does better than the placebo group there could be something to their claims. If it does no better than the placebo group it probably is worthless. If it does worse than the placebo group it is probably harmful.

I posted a video. I suggest that you watch it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As I just told Subzone, homeopathy works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body, but that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

I do not expect you to “believe” that any more than you are going to believe in the unknowable unprovable God, but you started the thread so I feel obligated to respond as I am able...

Repeating nonsense does not make it better.

If you want to claim that there is a "vital force" that can be stimulated the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate it. Good luck.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Repeating nonsense does not make it better.

If you want to claim that there is a "vital force" that can be stimulated the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate it. Good luck.

Does your body have the ability to heal itself, even if limited? There's your force that needs stimulating. Antibiotics produce a similar effect by giving your immune system a kick start or edge to defeat what is attacking your body. Our bodies have more ability than we give them credit for. Sadly people like yourself under sell our potential and over pay the pharmacy's. All those medications make our immune system weaker in the long run because immune system and mentality become dependant on them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Does your body have the ability to heal itself, even if limited? There's your force that needs stimulating. Antibiotics produce a similar effect by giving your immune system a kick start or edge to defeat what is attacking your body. Our bodies have more ability than we give them credit for. Sadly people like yourself under sell our potential and over pay the pharmacy's. All those medications make our immune system weaker in the long run because immune system and mentality become dependant on them.

Sorry but you are misusing the word "force".

And sadly people like you gladly shell out their money for water. Can you support any of your claims with real evidence or are you shooting blanks again?

 

[AManCalledHorse]

A placebo is a great example of how our bodies can heal themselves. A person can actually be physically sick and with a placebo become physically better. Our mentality breaks us down as much as a virus can. If in our mentality we accept we are getting better with a placebo, many do actually show improvement when it is nothing more but the ability of our bodies to repair itself with a mentality with less stress and worry, which both can and do break us down.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Sorry but you are misusing the word "force".

And sadly people like you gladly shell out their money for water. Can you support any of your claims with real evidence or are you shooting blanks again?

Your immune system is a force against any foreign invader to your body. It attacks and tries to eliminate any foreign invader. Your immune system is a force that declares a war on any invader of your body. Some they win, some they need a boost, some they lose but your immune systems will fight until defeated.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A placebo is a great example of how our bodies can heal themselves. A person can actually be physically sick and with a placebo become physically better. Our mentality breaks us down as much as a virus can. If in our mentality we accept we are getting better with a placebo, many do actually show improvement when it is nothing more but the ability of our bodies to repair itself with a mentality with less stress and worry, which both can and do break us down.

Yes, our bodies heal themselves. That should not be too surprising. And if a person is stressed he will have negative reactions in the form of elevated blood pressure, raised heartbeat, and other symptoms. Anything that lowers that stress could be helpful. Now all you have to do is to demonstrate that homeopathic medicines outperform placebos and you are golden.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your immune system is a force against any foreign invader to your body. It attacks and tries to eliminate any foreign invader. Your immune system is a force that declares a war on any invader of your body. Some they win, some they need a boost, some they lose but your immune systems will fight until defeated.

Sorry, still spouting nonsense. Don't get angry at others for your lack. I would suggest that you drop the word "force".

 

[atanu]

This thread is a continuation of a discussion between @Trailblazer and me in another thread. The last post over there:

That wasn’t actually one study; it was a meta-review of many studies of homeopathy.
The only studies out there that show that homeopathy has any effect beyond placebo are poor quality studies. There are countless high quality studies showing that homeopathy is not effective at treating any medical condition.

Makes sense that treating his asthma with water didn’t work.

They can do considerable harm, actually:

- they often lead to delay of real treatment, since many homeopathy fans will try homeopathy for a while before seeing a real doctor. Over that time, the person’s condition can worsen. People have died because of this.
because homeopathic “remedies” aren’t subject to the normal government oversight and regulation that real medications have, they often have poor quality control, resulting in things like bacterial contamination, dangerously high levels of toxic ingredients, and undeclared active ingredients:
Massive recall of homeopathic kids’ products spotlights dubious health claims
Food agency warns of belladonna danger in US homeopathy product
Homeopathic Nasal Zinc Linked to Loss of Smell
homeopathic medicinal products: Topics by Science.gov

Hopefully. In the worst cases, the homeopathic preparation causes real harm, or the person’s condition gets worse because of lack of real treatment and is much harder to treat once they get seen by real doctors.

Psychiatric drugs are serious business that need care when prescribing them, but they’re only prescribed when they’re better than the alternatives.
If someone does need psychotropic medication, telling them to switch to homeopathy instead is effectively telling them to go off their mess altogether. This is unethical, especially when it’s done by someone who purports to being a medical professional.

Of course homeopathic preparations have no side effects; they have no active ingredients (if you don’t count the quality control issues I mentioned earlier). They also have no treatment effect.

You don’t think that homeopathic companies make big money as well?

And you say that the drug industry has suppressed positive studies about homeopathy... so you do agree that the scientific literature does say that homeopathy doesn’t work (even if you think this is because of a conspiracy)?

Except for a few things, such as homeopathy, everything that’s sold for human consumption is inspected and confirmed to be safe, whether it’s the medicine you take or the food you eat. Homeopathic “remedy” producers generally don’t even have to go through the checks that, say, bottled water would have to go through to confirm that it’s being produced in a way that contaminants or undeclared ingredients won’t make it into the product.

And you don’t know anyone who ends up taking homeopathic preparations long term?

I note some personal experiences below:

About 25 years back, I had a condition called ‘Proctitis’. I was treated for 3 years with local application of betnovate. It was always temporary relief and doctors told me that the problem was nothing serious but entailed use of betnovate life long. I however knew how painful it was. In desperation, I had walked to a homeopath. He gave me 4 small pouches contains powders to be taken for 4 nights. And I was free of pain thereafter.

Once, a simple cold cough turned into asthma like condition by a continued use of a medicine ‘ipecac’. I had to resort to an Ayurvedic doctor, who prescribed a turmeric based Ayurvedic medicine for a week and I was okay.

I had once developed a lower back pain from sitting stooping. A medicine called ‘aesculus’ aggravated the condition to such an extent that I had fainted. The acute pain however vanished with a dose of ‘nux vom’. This was repeated thrice.

So, I do not think that homeopathic medicine is useless/harmless. Usually a remedy is specific for specific personality-disease symptoms and a statistical database demonstrating efficacy of a remedy for general populace cannot happen.

YMMV.
...

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Yes, our bodies heal themselves. That should not be too surprising. And if a person is stressed he will have negative reactions in the form of elevated blood pressure, raised heartbeat, and other symptoms. Anything that lowers that stress could be helpful. Now all you have to do is to demonstrate that homeopathic medicines outperform placebos and you are golden.

You already agree placebo's work, which contain nothing at all to heal. So why do you deny homeopathic medicines work? They may not work up to standards of modern medicine that many believe they need and mentally depend on, yet they are effective without making us dependant on modern medicine.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Sorry, still spouting nonsense. Don't get angry at others for your lack. I would suggest that you drop the word "force".

Angry? Don't try to put out something that isn't there. If you would rather point a false finger than discuss, you've already defeated your purpose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You already agree placebo's work, which contain nothing at all to heal. So why do you deny homeopathic medicines work? They may not work up to standards of modern medicine that many believe they need and mentally depend on, yet they are effective without making us dependant on modern medicine.

We know why and how placebos work. Why would I deny that they work? We know that homeopathic "medicines" do not work because they have been tested and they have failed. And their claims are pure nonsense when they are investigated scientifically.

Why do you think that water can remember a "medicine" but forgets poop?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Angry? Don't try to put out something that isn't there. If you would rather point a false finger than discuss, you've already defeated your purpose.

You sounded like the typical person that got fooled by homeopaths when you made false claims about medicine. Jealousy and pettiness are symptoms of anger.

If you don't want others to claim you are angry try to act appropriately. Now I am a bit angry with sellers of quack nostrums. We do have ways to test claims. When people state that claims cannot be tested they do so only because they know those claims are false. If homeopathy works you should be able to support that claim.

 

[atanu]

Angry? Don't try to put out something that isn't there. If you would rather point a false finger than discuss, you've already defeated your purpose.

Whoever differs from him is angry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Does your body have the ability to heal itself, even if limited? There's your force that needs stimulating. Antibiotics produce a similar effect by giving your immune system a kick start or edge to defeat what is attacking your body. Our bodies have more ability than we give them credit for. Sadly people like yourself under sell our potential and over pay the pharmacy's. All those medications make our immune system weaker in the long run because immune system and mentality become dependant on them.

I could've sworn cuts, insect bites, pneumonia and some other infections aren't life threatening anymore because of those anti-biotics, vaccines, and other advances in medicine. And I don't know about you, but I like the fact I grew not knowing what an iron lung is.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

We know why and how placebos work. Why would I deny that they work? We know that homeopathic "medicines" do not work because they have been tested and they have failed. And their claims are pure nonsense when they are investigated scientifically.

Why do you think that water can remember a "medicine" but forgets poop?

At least you have admitted that you accept a placebo that has no medical value is more effective than homeopathy treatments that actually do have medical value, even if deluted. Basically you are saying nothing is better than something.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Whoever differs from him is angry.

I'm kind of picking up on that. He seems to play that "its not me, its you" card quite often.