holocaust denial law

[satyaroop]

holocaust denial is a crime in some countries
do you agree with this, is this law justified? would you like to see this law implemented in more countries?

do you think this law is unreasonable and should be abolished?

"I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it" - could this apply to holocaust denial, or is holocaust denial too cruel and malicious, what say you?

 

[Revoltingest]

It might be reasonable in some of those backward Eurostanian countries,
but it would be both wrong & illegal if imposed here in Americastan.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm with countries having laws against it. I can certainly understand why it's banned in Germany and in countries that lost a lot of people due to the genocide. It's not like they're missing out by not having neo-Nazi scum run amuck. A law like that would never pass in the US, though.

 

[Father Heathen]

While holocaust denial is unquestionally abhorrent, you cannot have a free society without free speech, nor democracy without discourse. I believe that education and open debate are key to combating bigotry and ignorance, and that censorship sets a dangerous precedent.

 

[icehorse]

Think of it this way: One famous denier was David Irving - a documentary was made about a lawsuit he created. As a third party, I don't want some censor deciding for me that I shouldn't hear what David Irving had to say. Hearing his arguments gives me an opportunity to prepare myself to argue with other holocaust deniers. If I'm not allowed to hear their arguments, I will not be able to debate them as effectively as I might otherwise be able to.

 

[Stanyon]

Which genocide/holocaust? Oh that one.... The one that has been ingrained into western minds as the first and last ever

-I don't agree with the laws but I don't have to live there either

-To deny the systematic murder of millions of Jews and Non- Jews by the Nazis before and during WWII is ridiculous given all the first hand accounts, evidence, etc. but it shouldn't be illegal.

 

[Father Heathen]

Think of it this way: One famous denier was David Irving - a documentary was made about a lawsuit he created. As a third party, I don't want some censor deciding for me that I shouldn't hear what David Irving had to say. Hearing his arguments gives me an opportunity to prepare myself to argue with other holocaust deniers. If I'm not allowed to hear their arguments, I will not be able to debate them as effectively as I might otherwise be able to.

Exactly. You deal with and defeat things by shining light on it, not by hiding it in the dark.

 

[BSM1]

I'm with countries having laws against it. I can certainly understand why it's banned in Germany and in countries that lost a lot of people due to the genocide. It's not like they're missing out by not having neo-Nazi scum run amuck. A law like that would never pass in the US, though.

What's next? Shutting up us Flat-Earthers?

 

[columbus]

do you think this law is unreasonable and should be abolished?

Yes.
But we don't have it in the USA.

What Germans want to do in their country is beyond my understanding. I can barely understand what the local Chistians and blacks and Scots and women want to do.

Say whatever you want. Be prepared for the backlash, because the rest of us also have freedom of speech.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Neo-Nazis and other racists and hateful bigots are not typically reasonable people you can argue out of their hatred. Like the saying goes, you can't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into. In fact, engaging with them and debating gives their ideas a veneer of validity, as if their grotesque ideologies should be given the time of day. So using that as an excuse for not having hate speech laws and such is not convincing. Support free speech all you please but don't act like it does anything to stop Holocaust deniers and other cranks by allowing them to debate.

 

[Augustus]

do you agree with this, is this law justified? would you like to see this law implemented in more countries?

It exists in a small number of countries which had direct links to the holocaust in one form or another. In these circumstances it is understandable.

Holocaust denial tends to only have one function, spreading anti-Semitism.

Given that these laws were created in places with holocaust survivors and their relatives, as well as those who helped perpetrate the crimes, it serves an understandable social function.

Such laws probably don't need to be implemented in other countries though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What's next? Shutting up us Flat-Earthers?

That you see an equivalency here is instructive.

 

[Stanyon]

Neo-Nazis and other racists and hateful bigots are not typically reasonable people you can argue out of their hatred. Like the saying goes, you can't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into. In fact, engaging with them and debating gives their ideas a veneer of validity, as if their grotesque ideologies should be given the time of day. So using that as an excuse for not having hate speech laws and such is not convincing. Support free speech all you please but don't act like it does anything to stop Holocaust deniers and other cranks by allowing them to debate.

So anyone you disagree with and won't come around to your way of thinking needs to be silenced? Free speech until you disagree with it?
This sounds familiar.....

 

[Curious George]

It exists in a small number of countries which had direct links to the holocaust in one form or another. In these circumstances it is understandable.

Holocaust denial tends to only have one function, spreading anti-Semitism.

Given that these laws were created in places with holocaust survivors and their relatives, as well as those who helped perpetrate the crimes, it serves an understandable social function.

Such laws probably don't need to be implemented in other countries though.

Poland passes controversial Holocaust bill making it illegal to refer to Nazi death camps as Polish

Are such laws really any different than laws like this one though?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

FWIW, I'm not a fan of laws criminalizing holocaust denial.

 

[Augustus]

Poland passes controversial Holocaust bill making it illegal to refer to Nazi death camps as Polish

Are such laws really any different than laws like this one though?

I'd say so. The Polish law is an attempt to distance themselves from the holocaust, and any complicity of Poles in these events. The degree of Polish complicity is a topic of legitimate discussion.

The other laws relate to people denying objective fact for the purpose of spreading hostility against Jews.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well...I consider this law necessary in my country, because after massive immigration, there have been many cases of "foreigners belonging to a certain religion" who preach anti-Semitism and incitement to racial hatred in their buildings of worship (which since then were wiretapped).

and holocaust denial is just the tip of the iceberg of their "holy sermons"

 

[Father Heathen]

Neo-Nazis and other racists and hateful bigots are not typically reasonable people you can argue out of their hatred. Like the saying goes, you can't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into. In fact, engaging with them and debating gives their ideas a veneer of validity, as if their grotesque ideologies should be given the time of day. So using that as an excuse for not having hate speech laws and such is not convincing. Support free speech all you please but don't act like it does anything to stop Holocaust deniers and other cranks by allowing them to debate.

Stop them from what? You might not be able to change the mind of a bigot, but by examining their idealogy others can understand why it's irrational, unsubstantiated garbage. Silence breeds ignorance, and these laws will make them "martyrs" for their cause, and treats their message with more seriousness and attention than it deserves.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's next? Shutting up us Flat-Earthers?

No, the Moon landing deniers are next in line.

 

[Estro Felino]

Poland passes controversial Holocaust bill making it illegal to refer to Nazi death camps as Polish

Are such laws really any different than laws like this one though?

That's a very good decision, also because stereotypes and ignorance are the cause of historical myths..for example people think Italy was involved in the Holocaust..even indirectly.

I'm grateful to movies like Life is beautiful because it shows that, before Northern Italy was occupied by the Nazis, Jews could live a decent life, (although victims of intolerable racial laws) and that , after 1944, they were arrested and deported by the Nazis, not by fascists.