Time for some more writing
@1robin. The Holy Quran? Muhammad was positive about the Jews and Christians and urged His followers to respect these people. Sure, they deviated but how did Christians go with following their Messiah?
I didn't say anything about whether Muhammad liked or disliked Jews and Christians. However, since you brought it up Muhammad slaughtered and enslaved an entire tribe of Jews called the Banu Qurayza. The Quran says that on one occasion Muhammad beheaded Jews until he was so physically exhausted he had to stop, he had all their bodies thrown into a trench.
Muhammad united a disparate group of Arab herdsmen. Like Moses He taught them not to worship Idols and to worship the One True God. Amazing the similarities between the two Gods really. His people needed education about some of the great men of God that had come before who were of course prophets and men of the OT Jewish history. In regards to the Surah about Christ's crucifixion, its just another way of saying they didn't kill His spirit. The Muslims take it literally of course as the Christians take the resurrection literally. No scissors and glue required. Just a case of removing the log from our eyes so we can see clearly scripture as our Lord has instructed.
Much of that is true. Muhammad came from one of many independent Arabic tribes, he envied the unification between Jews and Christians based on their common faith. He apparently set out to reproduce a similar faith but he mangled the job horrifically. I believe his uncle had learned of Christianity and Judaism from heretics that were expelled from Israel. So he combined heretical Abrahamic teachings, Arabian fables, known Gnostic texts like the infancy Gospel, and stuff he apparently just made up. That is why the Quran gets dates, names, places, mathematics, philosophy, and concepts so wrong.
That Surah does not contain the word spirit, you had to add that in to make your faith's claims work out. That is what I have said about the Baha'i over and over. They have to make contradictory things seem consistent. So they mangle everyone else's scriptures until they are unrecognizable, and then pronounce them all consistent. I do not understand why you would gamble your soul on such an effort. I have heard dozens of Muslim apologists comment on that surah in different ways, never in the way you did.
As a mathematician you like to play the numbers game so we have a religion with nearly 25% of the worlds population and the fastest growing religion in the world. If Pew research is true then the number of Muslims is set to exceed Christians by the end of this century.
I do have 2 degrees in math but I do not like doing it. However what your talking about isn't math, its a philosophical fallacy. I think it is called the popularity fallacy. If the number who believe determined what was true then Christianity would win, but to suggest that is simply irrational.
BTW The baby's of Muslim parents are counted as Muslim before they know enough about anything to have faith in anything, the birth rates in Muslim countries are far higher than in Christian nations, and in many nations leaving Islam is a capital offense. With that set up I would expect them to have surpassed us centuries ago. Christianity exploded despite persecution, Islam exploded by persecuting.
You are welcome to show me specific parts of the Quran you take exception to you. I didn't grow up a Muslim though. I grew up a Christian.
Well let's start at the beginning I guess. Are you familiar with the details of Muhammad's initial experience with "Gabriel" in the cave.
Once again we will need quotes. The problem with Buddhist and Hindu texts is that even their adherents are uncertain about their authenticity so probably not the most useful discussion for us. From a Baha'i perspective reincarnation is not to be literally understood. It sounds remarkably similar to the Christian concept of being born again. Yes, a symbolic interpretation again.
I'm getting predictable.
My coming back as a cow sounds nothing like being baptized into Christ. The Bible says:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men
once to die, but after this the judgment.
Hinduism has us dying and coming back over and over and over.
Why do you want scriptural quotes from sources you say are unreliable?
Baha'u'llah's 'spiritual resurrection' had the same affect on His believers.
No one can see a spiritual resurrection, that is why I didn't mention it. We can see a dead man come back to life, we can read prophecies and see if they came true, that is why I mentioned them.
I agree that Jesus fulfilled prophecies from the OT but it is not nearly as clear as you make out. 2,500 maybe a little overkill, don't you think? Baha'u'llah fulfilled many prophecies too but we'll leave that for another time.
Roughly 2500 hundred prophecies are made in the bible, they are not all about Christ, I did not claim they were.
You may have more Christians than Baha'is now but how many did you have after 170 years? That would be a better comparison, don't you agree?
Actually all arguments from popularity should be avoided.
If we are having a debate I will need to call 'foul' as you have omitted any mention of the wars and atrocities committed by Christians. Your reading of history is conveniently selective.
There is no debate about this. I already said that men (including Christians) have done more harm than good. There is not enough room in the forum to list the atrocities of Christians. That is why I do not see God in the general conduct of most men. I do not see God in the crusades, the inquisitions, the Christian conquistadors, nor in the Stalins, Hitlers, Pol Pots, Roman emperors, or Greek generals. The bible says Satan is the prince of this world, and that is what I see most of the time.
Not quite what I meant by my personal friends and associate from different cultures. My faith encourages me to love, forgive, and see the good in people. I know your faith does as well. As with all the wars, sometimes its hard to remember Jesus core message to really love people, even when it comes to your enemies.
My faith gives moral perfection as a goal but not a destination any mortal will ever reach in life.
Do you agree that world peace is prophesised in the OT for example Isaiah?
The bible does say that peace will reign at some future point. It will reign because of God and despite man.
The fallen world seems overly dark and pessimistic. However I agree evil exists like he absence of light. Communism is seen by Baha'is as one of the great evils of the 20th century. Had the Tsar Alexandra II heeded Baha'u'llah's admonitions in the 19th century communism would never have taken root.
If true that would only mean Baha'ism was better than communism, however the truth is that all forms of government fail. That is because they are all composed of fallen men.
That's right. Erected again....spiritually
Are you saying Christ's spirit existed, died, and was erected again? How does God die? Didn't you say that the Surah above says that they didn't kill Christ's spirit?
What you believe appears to me so far off the realm of being possible, that it is essentially impossible. I can see how important it is for Christians including yourself to believe in a physical resurrection. I know I'm unlikely to change your mind as you are mine. However it needs to be appreciated that there is another way of looking at Christ's resurrection that is biblically based, and Christians should not fear being branded as heretics because they refuse to accept this. Too late for me though as I've gone off to the dark side with those Baha'is
How do you know what is possible or impossible concerning supernatural events or entities? The only impossibilities I can think of are things that are logically incoherent, like a square circle or a married bachelor.
There are many ways of considering anything. However there is only one best conclusion.
As previously stated I do not recognise bible scholars as having anymore, or any less authority than you and I. If we are truly concerned with science and evidence then we see that often long established models need to be challenged and sometimes thrown out. Einstein's theory of relativity surpassed Newtonian physics with its accompanying world that ran like clockwork. The Baha'i have a new theological worldview that sees the NT in a different light as Jesus cast new light on the OT.
So those with the most training, most experience, and access to the most evidence are equal to their opposites. I do not think any company in human history has hired on that basis.
I don't think a consensus of the popular vote would go in your favour if we included all the worlds population. The sample is biased in that you choose only people who think as you do, and then when they don't they are cast out as non believers and unfaithful.
I do not know if I or you introduced popularity but we should both cease from using it as an argument.
Talk to the Jewish scholars and believe me, they will have a mountain of scripture called the OT to counter anything you say.
Christians have the bulk of Judaism's scripture, I have debated some of their brightest, and I have found them the most capable (if not ultimately successful) group of non-Christians there are.
However I agree with the Christians that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Isn't it nice to finish so positively
More to follow
If you agree with me about the messiah, then what is it in Judaism you are calling my attention to?
I consider Baha'ism to be among the least justifiable theologies in history, but IMO the Baha'i's style of debating surpasses all other groups (including me and my group). I treat debates as a war between ideas and doubt that Christ would approve of many of my posts. Thank God I am saved by grace, instead of merit.
