Hinduism Debate

[Vinayaka]

I wonder why I could not just feel the same strong shakti in my own living room if God is everywhere.

I used to wonder that too. But experience taught me differently. Don't ask me why... it may be the vibrational remnants of thousands of years of thousands of bhaktars worship and devotion. Just a guess. it's not an intellectual process, going to Palani.

 

[George-ananda]

it's not an intellectual process, going to Palani.

Probably there is an intellectual explanation by those who better understand the nature of super-physical vibrations and their effects.

 

[Vinayaka]

Probably there is an intellectual explanation by those who better understand the nature of super-physical vibrations and their effects.

Not that I know of. But you went to be in the presence of a great saint. To many, that would also be quite illogical. (Not to me.)

he pilgrims to the temples could care less about any intellectual explanation. If you tried to explain it to anyone, he'd look at you as if you were crazy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And I always believed Rigveda as the foundation scripture of Hinduism that explains Iswara in depth than any other scripture. :sad4:

There is no need to be sad. Actually, one should rejoice in the freedom of views that Hinduism offers us. Is that available in any other religion? See, for example, what is known as the Hindu creation hymn in RigVeda, the 'Nasadiya Sukta'. It says:

Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. (Translation by Ralph Griffith)

I do not think OP needs any consideration after that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. one must hold the Vedas as either infallible and/or authoritative, disregarding any other scriptures of other religions as authoritative; ..

People may give lip service to Vedas but an infinitesimal percentage of Hindus have read it, and even less have understood it. We do not normally worship the Gods mentioned in the Vedas. Even when the Vedic Gods are invoked, the main worship is for the indigenous Hindu Gods like Shiva, Durga, Rama, Krishna, Ganesha, etc. You may have it as one of the conditions of being a Hindu, but Vedas do not really define a Hindu, as Ramayana, Bhagawat Purana, Gita and Upanishads do.

Probably there is an intellectual explanation by those who better understand the nature of super-physical vibrations and their effects.

Super-physical vibrations do hit one when one visits the Hindu religious places, looks down on to the valleys from a high mountain, sits near the pure waters of a gurgling stream, or gets lost in a deodar forest.

 

[Philomath]

To be categorized as "Hindu" in the most simplest sense (not in the geo-political, semantical digression of "beyond the river Sindhu"), putting aside even the most orthodox approaches in answering this troubling and often times confusing and overlapping question...

...one must hold the Vedas as either infallible and/or authoritative, disregarding any other scriptures of other religions as authoritative; ....while other scriptures can be seen or held in skepticism, the Vedas cannot.
​

...This would categorize the individual as astika, making him/her a Hindu by default, since he or she does not or would not hold the Vedas in skepticism, rather seeing them as highly authoritative in spiritualism, mysticism, and religious identification.​

I've never read the Vedas so how can I hold them to be infallible? I believe in the Vedas but I don't hold them to be infallible, I don't believe anything is infallible.

 

[George-ananda]

.Super-physical vibrations do hit one when one visits the Hindu religious places, looks down on to the valleys from a high mountain, sits near the pure waters of a gurgling stream, or gets lost in a deodar forest.

Thanks for your answer but unless you've converted away from your physicalist mentality, you are not talking about what I was calling super-physical vibrations. You are talking about brain reaction. I'm actually talking about vibrations from without entering a person's physical and super-physical (astral, etc.) fields.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for your answer but unless you've converted away from your physicalist mentality, you are not talking about what I was calling super-physical vibrations. You are talking about brain reaction. I'm actually talking about vibrations from without entering a person's physical and super-physical (astral, etc.) fields.

I have queried several temple priests, monks etc. with the question: Why do some people feel this and others don't? This came about through observations such as:
-One person showing tears of bhakti, at the same time and place as another walking by apparently totally oblivious
- asking various people about the 'strength' of a particular temple, comparing notes, then getting varying answers
- talking with different people about my experiences in different temples. For example, one person I know told me he felt tremendous vibration at Chidambaram, yet nothing at Tanjore, yet for me, the opposite was true... not nothing at Chidambaram but far less than at Tanjore.

So in summary, the priests and swamis suggested that the whole thing has several factors at play:
1) the general openness of the devotee ... both emotionally, and mystically ... some people expect nothing so get nothing, while others are just far more sensitive to vibration
2) the astrology of the day .. in this case it was for a day to day situation, and 90% would agree that one day felt stronger than another
3) the personal relationship of the person top that particular deity, or even that particular murthi... we have two murthis here, (Ganesha) the original one and a bigger one installed at the kumbahbhishekam, many people, especially the elders, because of the relationship that has been established, feel more from the smaller one
As for a particular deity, but not murthy, its just stands to reason a Saivite would feel more from Siva
4) the devotion established at a particular temple, or even the devotion on a particular day from others, the group effect

So it's complicated. I think this energy is undeniable though, yet of course if you can't feel it, you can't feel it.

On many occasions in my life I've had non-Hindus notice it, some more than others. A colleague friend who was curious about my faith one night came to a puja. The very first question out of his mouth after was: "______, does your religion believe in some sort of energy?"

Although I understand why some people might not get it, in a way I feel sorry for them, because for me its like winning the lottery. Meditation is so much easier at or after temple worship, insights are gained there, it's really a house of mysticism.

There are also many barriers to going. Things like fear of crowds, fear of unfamiliarity, fear of being the only stranger, a past conditioning to the evils of idol worship, even repressed but subconscious racism. Another factor is the intellectual conviction that temples are for the superstitious. It's tough to overcome all that.

 

[George-ananda]

while others are just far more sensitive to vibration

I guess I was trying to get at what is this 'vibration' of which you speak. I'm speculating that there are waves/energy emanating above our known physical level that the still and receptive individual can be positively energized by. We are more than physical bodies.

 

[Vinayaka]

I guess I was trying to get at what is this 'vibration' of which you speak. I'm speculating that there are waves/energy emanating above our known physical level that the still and receptive individual can be positively energized by. We are more than physical bodies.

This 'vibration' is God. In Saiva Siddhanta, God has three perfections. This is one of them, also called divine consciousness, and Sat-chit-ananda. It is in and through all things, yet can be sensed better at some places.

We have 5 bodies, the physical is just the most outer one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks for your answer but unless you've converted away from your physicalist mentality, you are not talking about what I was calling super-physical vibrations.

No, my views have not changed in any way. I think the effect is cultural.

 

[atanu]

There is no need to be sad. Actually, one should rejoice in the freedom of views that Hinduism offers us. Is that available in any other religion? See, for example, what is known as the Hindu creation hymn in RigVeda, the 'Nasadiya Sukta'. It says:

Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. (Translation by Ralph Griffith)

I do not think OP needs any consideration after that.

Yes. The red highlight clears it all.

Unless one is non-different from the Seer abiding in the highest heaven, one must be devoted to Ishwara and Guru. Else, it leads only and only to devotion of ego self.

And abiding as the Seer in the =highest heaven does not come by belief in LokyAta or charvAka, since they, like, the materialists taught that the body was all there was.

 

[atanu]

---
Most of the time the atheist who post in the Hindu Dir are vary respectful, so i don't see the problem there.

Ha ha. That is true. chArvAks and lokyAtAs were characterised with sweet speech. Yet that does not qualify a chArvAk or a lokyAta as a follower of Sanatana dharma.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram vinayaka ji :namaste

I have queried several temple priests, monks etc. with the question: Why do some people feel this and others don't? This came about through observations such as:
-One person showing tears of bhakti, at the same time and place as another walking by apparently totally oblivious

I have also watched this over many years and know from my own feelings that there are a few things going on here ,

firstly we might walk into a temple and feel absolutely overwhelmed by a real strength of feeling , this I began to feel was the real presence of the deity who resided there very happily due to the love and devotion of his devotees it is not allways anything to do with the size or opulance of the temple but more with the bhava of the deities close devotees and the mood of the congregation .

then there is another alltogether different conection which one person will make with the deity that another does not and that is through purity of heart .

there are many other possible reasons but these Ifeel particularly strongly .

So it's complicated. I think this energy is undeniable though, yet of course if you can't feel it, you can't feel it.

deffinately it is complex as the deities them selves have reasons we might not fully comprehend .

On many occasions in my life I've had non-Hindus notice it, some more than others. A colleague friend who was curious about my faith one night came to a puja. The very first question out of his mouth after was: "______, does your religion believe in some sort of energy?"

this I can also fully belive and an glad for anyone who feels it

 

[atanu]

To be categorized as "Hindu" in the most simplest sense (not in the geo-political, semantical digression of "beyond the river Sindhu"), putting aside even the most orthodox approaches in answering this troubling and often times confusing and overlapping question...

...one must hold the Vedas as either infallible and/or authoritative, disregarding any other scriptures of other religions as authoritative; ....while other scriptures can be seen or held in skepticism, the Vedas cannot.
​

...This would categorize the individual as astika, making him/her a Hindu by default, since he or she does not or would not hold the Vedas in skepticism, rather seeing them as highly authoritative in spiritualism, mysticism, and religious identification.​

This, as far as I am aware, is the main parameter. I add that most Hindus may not know even a bit of Veda-Vedanta. But they are Hindus because most of these have faith or are in some way follow the teachers who uphold the Vedas.

 

[atanu]

This 'vibration' is God. In Saiva Siddhanta, God has three perfections. This is one of them, also called divine consciousness, and Sat-chit-ananda. It is in and through all things, yet can be sensed better at some places.

We have 5 bodies, the physical is just the most outer one.

This is how I understand.

The vibration thing is guna-s (the qualities) of mind. The non dual consciousness that the brahman is, is said to be guna-free (or with infinite guna-s). The qualities (palpable guna-s) accompany the mind that arises simultaneous with rise of "I Am". That is said to be the universal all pervading Mahat - the universal mind. Many know this as Vishnu.

The three qualities are: sattwa (characterised by goodness, joy, purity, compassion, love etc.), rajas (the fiery fervour of ego), and the tamas (the lethargy of inertness).

Places/Times/Persons imbibe these three qualities in varying and changeable proportions. Auspicious times/auspicious places/auspicious persons imbibe and radiate the sattwa guna predominantly. When in vicinity of such radiators, we feel light, elated, worry free, compassionate, full of love etc.

Individuals can easily cultivate sattwa guna by by-passing the egoic tendencies. OTOH, the fiery ego urgings may often lead to road rage or sudden eruption of violence.

Many temples are auspicious places from primordial times or are maintained in such state by the priests. However, until and unless one has attained some sattwik purity, one may not be touched by the sattwik qualities of a place/time/person. OTOH, accomplished Hindu or Buddhist teachers know how to radiate the sattwa. It is their reason for existing in form in time and space.

Shiva - the auspicious, the one who drinks and keeps the poison of the samsara in His throat, radiating only the pure wisdom love, is the highest auspicious guru.

AUM

 

[atanu]

Just as a point of information, the mods did have a poll about this. I voted blue, as did a few others, but the majority went for green.

Yes Vinayaka I saw that. And that actually made me a bit concerned. As if number of votes can decide such an issue.

And that is why I resisted participating in this forum. I sense a danger that moderators who may be atheistic and who may not at all appreciate the distinction between spiritual and physical can easily support the wrong ideas that actually have been antagonistic to Hindu Dharma as the Hindu Dharma. It is ironical. Lokyata or Charvaka-s were materialists who held that body was all that there was. They disregarded the spiritual teachings that only the Veda-s can provide. No doubt these atheistic materialistic philosophies originated in what is called India. Yet these philosophies opposed Veda-s and dharma. It is ironical that some such atheists can claim that they represent Hindu Dharma.

But Who Am I? Let time take care of this so-called democracy.

Any Guru of Hinduism, Shankara to Madhava, Chaitanya to Prabhupada, and Ramana to Chinmayananda, will teach only that which Veda teaches. Common Hindus may or may not know much about the Vedas-upanishads. But common Hindus follow teachers who transmit only the Vedas.

As per the Rig Veda, as shown below, the Vedas originate from the Vidhatar (the controller Lord) itself.

10.181.01 Vasis.t.ha, whose (son) is Pratha by name, and whose (son) is Sapratha, has (with them) borne away from Dha_ta, and from the radiant Savita_, and from Vis.n.u, the rathantara portion of the oblation which is offered with the anus.t.up verse. [Rathantara: is the Sa_maveda; or some hymns of this Veda].
10.181.02 They discovered (the Br.hat) which has been put away, the most excellent substance of the sacrifice which was hidden; Bharadva_ja took the Br.hat from Dha_ta_, the radiant Savita_, Vis.n.u, and Agni. [They: i.e., Dha_ta_, Savita_ etc.; br.hat: br.hat is also a portion of the Sa_maveda].
10.181.03 Those brilliant deities discovered by their intelligence the principal means of sacrifice which has to be effused, which leads to the gods; these (priests) have taken the Gharma from Dha_ta_, the radiant Savita_ and Vis.n.u.​

​

Further, Vedanta, especially the advaita vedanta, that teaches of non-dual brahman, does not teach of atheism etc. The knowledge of non-dual brahman is in the realm of the universal mind, wherein the categories of beings exist-dwell-abide. In this realm, ego can only lose itself by its unstinted devotion to Self-Ishwara-Guru (these are synonymous terms). Else, one is just devoted to the ego.

In non-dual brahman there is no scope for a belief like theism-devotion etc. But there is no scope for an idea like atheism too.

IMO, this holds for Buddhism too, wherein without devotion to the Buddha, which is true nature of all beings, the ocean of the samsara cannot be crossed over.

 

[Poeticus]

Just as a point of information, the mods did have a poll about this. I voted blue, as did a few others, but the majority went for green.

Yes Vinayaka I saw that. And that actually made me a bit concerned. As if number of votes can decide such an issue.

And that is why I resisted participating in this forum.

Atanu,

The following maybe of some interest
to you regarding making the HinduDIR
Blue or Green: Click Me --

This was the latest, most recent poll.
As you can see, the attitude of most
Hindus of the HinduDIR have changed
considerably from the last poll.​

 

[atanu]

Atanu,

The following maybe of some interest
to you regarding making the HinduDIR
Blue or Green: Click Me --

This was the latest, most recent poll.
As you can see, the attitude of most
Hindus of the HinduDIR have changed
considerably from the last poll.​

Great. I did not know this. Kudos to you.

 

[Poeticus]

Great. I did not know this. Kudos to you.

Thank you:

It was a sweeping victory; including
votes by non-Hindus, the tallies now
represent a landslide win of 21 to 6.
Plus, the poll has now been closed.
​