Hindu-Bahai Gita Discussion

[Truthseeker]

The question I wish to pose is what IF Baha’u’llah is the Tenth Avatar, Kalki? Then whatever He would say that would be truth and that would include interpretations of scriptures. Just because a belief has been long standing does not mean it is true or correct. And Krishna is not accountable to His followers to obey their wishes and desires but to tell the truth so is it so far fetched that Figures such as Moses, Buddha, Chrust and Muhammad were all the same Spirit of the Avatar returning from age to age to renew religion as stated in the Gita?

Noting this, then, I think it in error to hurriedly write off Baha’u’llah as not having anything to do with the promises in the Gita because He did renew religion and was a very great spiritual Personage.

What is interesting is that there is no mention of Kalki in the Baha'i Writings, just the 10th Avatar and return of Krishna. If you look at articles by Chritopher Buck, he casts doubt on Kalki. Kalki seems to be a figure that fights against Buddhists for one thing and that is contrary to Baha'i principles.

Awaiting the Hindu Messiah

It is dangerous to present Baha'u'llah as Kalki for this reason. Hindus would get the wrong impression.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What is interesting is that there is no mention of Kalki in the Baha'i Writings, just the 10th Avatar and return of Krishna. If you look at articles by Chritopher Buck, he casts doubt on Kalki. Kalki seems to be a figure that fights against Buddhists for one thing and that is contrary to Baha'i principles.

Awaiting the Hindu Messiah

It is dangerous to present Baha'u'llah as Kalki for this reason. Hindus would get the wrong impression.

Here’s another article by Chris Buck.

Kalki, the Hindus, and the Problem With Complex Prophecies

Its an interesting point. There are all sorts of problems with making prophetic claims. For one it a complex area that often requires in depth knowledge. Secondly its an area of controversy and conflicting opinions. Making such a claim is likely to lead to misunderstandings, especially in regards Hinduism where it comes across as proselytising. There are many other topics for discussion where we are more likely find common ground and less likely to misunderstand each other.

 

[Vinayaka]

What is interesting is that there is no mention of Kalki in the Baha'i Writings, just the 10th Avatar and return of Krishna. If you look at articles by Chritopher Buck, he casts doubt on Kalki. Kalki seems to be a figure that fights against Buddhists for one thing and that is contrary to Baha'i principles.

Awaiting the Hindu Messiah

It is dangerous to present Baha'u'llah as Kalki for this reason. Hindus would get the wrong impression.

As with Krishna, Kalki is only present and/or believed in by some Hindus, not all. Kalki has nothing to do with my sect.

 

[SalixIncendium]

In the final chapter of the Gita, Lord Krishna addresses Arjuna:

"Have you heard this, O Arjuna, with undivided attention? Has your delusion caused by ignorance been dispelled, O Dhananjaya!"

Arjuna responds to Lord Krishna:

"...by Your grace my delusion has been destroyed and I have gained true knowledge. I stand free from doubt. I will carry out your behest. "

Sanjaya who has witness this conversation between Lord Krishna and Arjuna says:

"Thus, I have heard this wonderful dialogue between high souled Vâsudeva and Arjuna, which makes my hair stand on end."

BG 18:71-73

Like Arjuna, I am convinced of the arguments presented by Lord Krishna. I hope that I too would arise to carry out the admonitions of my Lord and arise to perform my Dharma. In this instance if I were to be worthy of hearing the counsel of the Lord Himself, I would unhesitatingly play my part as a warrior in the Kurukshetra war.

I began reading though this thread, but now I have to table it until I've finished my Gita study, because now you guys are posting spoilers.

 

[Jainarayan]

I think its funny that given all the sincere and deeply-felt love of Bahais for Hinduism, Bahai’s and Hindus don’t seem to get along with each other although the majority of both faiths seem to claim that "you can find God in every religion or scripture.“ Why do you think this is so?

I chafe at the Baha’i belief that He Who is God to me, is reduced to the status of a messenger, sent by God. By a stretch of semantics that’s not entirely untrue, He did send Himself as a messenger to mankind. But He wasn’t sent by some “other God”. He self-manifests, over and over yuge yuge, from age to age (but clearly, we don’t get it).

Yes, I know this is from the guy who probably rustles Christians’ jimmies by saying Jesus was a prophet or saint, yogi, etc., and perhaps not God nor an incarnation. But I’m actually on the fence about it... God can do whatever He damn well pleases or needs to do. So I’m not ready to totally discount Jesus’s divinity, though like many other gods, goddesses and avatars, I just don’t pray to him.

That’s what I think the issue is... Krishna is just another knick-knack on the shelf or in the collection. I don’t think there are even non-Vaishnava Hindus who don’t think of Krishna as maybe not their form of God, but definitely a form of God, not a messenger or prophet or some such thing.

And what about Rāma? Why isn’t Rāma included in the list of Baha’i “messengers”? Rāma’s task and mission was to restore dharma and destroy evil, and teach us what dharmic conduct and living is. So, where’s Rāma?

 

[CG Didymus]

And what about Rāma? Why isn’t Rāma included in the list of Baha’i “messengers”? Rāma’s task and mission was to restore dharma and destroy evil, and teach us what dharmic conduct and living is. So, where’s Rāma?

I don't think the Baha'is have much in teachings about Krishna... let alone Rama. But that's why I asked the Baha'is earlier as to why their prophet is the 10th Avatar? Why are at least Jesus, Muhammad and The Bab and maybe others left off? And if Krishna was the 9th, why don't Baha'is talk about the previous eight? Of course they don't know, and why should they. They don't necessarily believe in all the finer details of the older religions. They just need to show they believe enough about them to make their concept of "progressive" revelation sound true. And I'd agree, it kind of is. Religions are always changing. They evolve and maybe even "mutate" into something different when they are affected, or infected, by beliefs of some other religion. But I don't believe in how the Baha'is believe in progressive revelation... that the same God sent different messengers to different places at different times. But that they are all related and all spoke of the one God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And what about Rāma? Why isn’t Rāma included in the list of Baha’i “messengers”? Rāma’s task and mission was to restore dharma and destroy evil, and teach us what dharmic conduct and living is. So, where’s Rāma?

Another question might be, where in the Baha'i writings is Rama dismissed or criticized. There is nowhere because Rama isn't mentioned at all. There is no denial Rama might have been the seventh avatar of Vishnu. We have no way of knowing from the Baha'i writings.

Baha'u'llah was born into a noble family in Persia in the early 18th century. He was exiled and imprisoned over 40 years through Baghdad, Adrianople, Constantinople and finally Palestine. These lands were all part of the Ottoman Empire where conservative Islam dominated.

So while there wasn't the opportunity to discuss the finer points of Hinduism, Baha'u'llah's message completely transcends conservative Islam IMHO The acknowledgement of the Divine origins of Hinduism and Krishna as a Manifestation of God is an important starting point, not an end point.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thread started for myself and @loverofhumanity to converse in detail about the verses of Gita.
Basic question to be discussed: What does the Gita actually say, and is it compatible with the Bahai theology?

When is the line by line discussion going to start?

 

[Truthseeker]

As with Krishna, Kalki is only present and/or believed in by some Hindus, not all. Kalki has nothing to do with my sect.

Still, it would give the wrong impression to some Hindus. Thanks for the correction.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When is the line by line discussion going to start?

Personally CG I do not see a line by line discussion will be helpful.

All things are made new, old concepts are given new meanings.

All the best.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

chafe at the Baha’i belief that He Who is God to me, is reduced to the status of a messenger, sent by God. By a stretch of semantics that’s not entirely untrue, He did send Himself as a messenger to mankind. But He wasn’t sent by some “other God”. He self-manifests, over and over yuge yuge, from age to age (but clearly, we don’t get it).

I say stick with what makes sense to you.

I have found life is in constant change and that it is our ability to accept change that enables us to consider thing's we have not considered before.

My thought about God is that God is beyond what we can know. As such all we can know of God are of those that brought those scriptures, they become our focal point on all we can know about God. Others will see it differently.

I definitely do not want to agure over scripture anymore, I am happy to explore meanings that are yet to be considered.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Still, it would give the wrong impression to some Hindus. Thanks for the correction.

What is the 'it' you're talking about? In my view, the Baha'i faith, in it's entirety, gives the wrong impression to Hindus. There is a huge difference between traditional Hinduism, in almost any form, than the Baha'i version, which isn't Hinduism at all, but a distortion, which can only be termed the Baha'i version of Hinduism. Certainly not Hinduism.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What is interesting is that there is no mention of Kalki in the Baha'i Writings, just the 10th Avatar and return of Krishna. If you look at articles by Chritopher Buck, he casts doubt on Kalki. Kalki seems to be a figure that fights against Buddhists for one thing and that is contrary to Baha'i principles.

Awaiting the Hindu Messiah

It is dangerous to present Baha'u'llah as Kalki for this reason. Hindus would get the wrong impression.

In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha interprets woes to be the Manifestations because they destroy sin, evil and wickedness through their teachings.


“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the “Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty.

“It is therefore evident then that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is upon the heedless, the sinners, and the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.”


Some Answered Questions
‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

Christians interpret these woes as calamities to befall mankind. Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace but a sword yet in other passages in the Bible the tongue is described as the sharpest of swords.

All the Holy Books have references to things like ‘cast into hell fire’ and such but these are not literal, however those who oppose religion will use these terms to degrade religion.

Whether we use the name Kalki or not the Guardian did refer to Him in this passage,


“To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the "Most Great Spirit," the "Tenth Avatar," the "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna.”

Excerpt from
God Passes By
Shoghi Effendi

The Guardian clearly referred to Kalki and scholars are entitled to their viewpoints but according to the Guardian Baha’u’llah is the Tenth Avatar Who is Kalki according to Hindu tradition.

The 10 Avatars of the Hindu God Vishnu

 

[Martin]

What is the 'it' you're talking about? In my view, the Baha'i faith, in it's entirety, gives the wrong impression to Hindus. There is a huge difference between traditional Hinduism, in almost any form, than the Baha'i version, which isn't Hinduism at all, but a distortion, which can only be termed the Baha'i version of Hinduism. Certainly not Hinduism.

I wouldn't expect a group of Abrahamic syncretists to even understand the Dharmic traditions, let alone represent them accurately.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wouldn't expect a group of Abrahamic syncretists to even understand the Dharmic traditions, let alone represent them accurately.

I don’t know about that. To me the overwhelming beauty of Hindu literature and culture, not to mention principles like Ahimsa, have enriched human civilisation enormously. I don’t think it’s a culture the world can do without. I often wish I were born into such a wonderful culture.

We have a very good Hindu friend. She is the wife of our local doctor and drops in regularly bringing food and sweets, sometimes Biryani. So, so humble. She stands out even more than Baha’is and we consider her family.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you look at articles by Chritopher Buck, he casts doubt on Kalki.

Why should we? He is a Bahai. We will go with how we understand it.
Moreover, Kalki is a Vaishnava idea. Other Hindus will not deny it, but may not go with it.

All things are made new, old concepts are given new meanings.

There are no new meanings. The ideal of brotherly love and peaceful living together was always there. It is, as we say, 'Sanātana', eternal. None of the extant religions discovered it. We are actually discussing personages. Whether there was a Krishna or will there be a Kalki? Or where Bahaollah stands? And what is the evidence for any and all of them?

As such all we can know of God are of those that brought those scriptures, they become our focal point on all we can know about God.

And what is the guarantee that scriptures have any truth? After all, they were also created by humans.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some verses I absolutely love about the Bhagavad-Gita are passages like this:

I am the beginning, middle, and end of creation.(10:20)


17 I am the father and mother of this universe, and its grandfather too; I am its entire support. I am the sum of all knowledge, the purifier, the syllable Om; I am the sacred scriptures, the Rig, Yajur, and Sama Vedas. 18 I am the goal of life, the Lord and support of all, the inner witness, the abode of all. I am the only refuge, the one true friend; (Ch 9)

 

[Vinayaka]

I wouldn't expect a group of Abrahamic syncretists to even understand the Dharmic traditions, let alone represent them accurately.

With some non-Hindus, they don't pretend, and come right out and say that we got it wrong, in so many ways. Of course we understand that in terms of who they are, and don't view life in right/wrong terms. With Baha'is, they use simplistic platitudes, and oft repeated phrases like 'The Gita is a wonderful book' or 'I have a Hindu friend who's nice' thinking that this oversimplified stuff will fool you. But then, as soon as it goes any deeper, the truth of what they think comes out. In some ways the Christian evangelist is easier to deal with as they're quick to the point, and you can drop any hopes of a discussion immediately.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why should we? He is a Bahai. We will go with how we understand it.

In 3 or 4 years, I have yet to see any Baha'i quote any non-Baha'i source, lol. My memory could be wrong though. How's the weather?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Some Answered Questions by Abdul-Baha interprets woes to be the Manifestatikns because they destroy sin, evil and wickedness through their teachings.

The Guardian clearly referred to Kalki and scholars are entitled to their viewpoints but according to the Guardian Baha’u’llah is the Tenth Avatar Who is Kalki according to Hindu tradition.

What does 'woes' and what are manifestakins. I have heard the word for the first time.

As per dictionary, woe means grievous distress, affliction or trouble. Do you mean to say that Mohammad, Bab and Bahaollah were afflictions? Well some people will take it that way. What about the earlier afflictions? Who are the headless and ignorant? Who are the sinners and what is their sin? What evil, sin or wickedness has been destroyed? The world is as it was all the time. Shoghi and his predecessors slighted all other religions.