Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Nice, drizzles. 86 F. Water logging in some Delhi or Mumbai streets. Nothing to worry about. Children enjoy a swim. Land Slides in hills, blocked roads, floods in UP, Bihar, Maharashtra too. Nothing unusual.
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Hindu-Bahai Gita Discussion
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
Nice, drizzles. 86 F. Water logging in some Delhi or Mumbai streets. Nothing to worry about. Children enjoy a swim. Land Slides in hills, blocked roads, floods in UP, Bihar, Maharashtra too. Nothing unusual.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Well, that is the theist Vaishnava understanding., and I am an Advaitist. For me, no God. I am Brahman (Aham Brahmasmi).
That’s my point, not that he’s dismissed, that he’s at least as important a manifestation/incarnation of God as Krishna. I can understand that the other avatars are less well-known because they came for a single purpose. Rāma and Krishna are the teachers. I suppose my question is what are the criteria for a manifestation or incarnation being included in the list of Baha’i messengers?
The criteria is: 'if the infallible one said so, then it's true'. Gee, doesn't that make sense to you?
If there is not One Who possesses infallible knowledge how can anyone know if they possess true knowledge or not for human beings err?
Past Great Spiritual Beings, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Moses and Muhammad thousands of years after Their death have captivated the hearts and souls of billions of people who model their daily lives on just the Words they uttered. Clearly they have an invisible power which no man possesses that they overcame the fiercest adversity yet eventually won over the world to their Cause.
People recognised in Them a power and knowledge born of God so followed Them instead of just following their own opinions because they realised their own human knowledge was imperfect but God’s knowledge is infinite and without error.
It is a supreme act of humility to acknowledge ones own limitations and accept and turn to God’s guidance instead of following our imperfect selves.
These Spiritual Beings have established Their spiritual ascendancy over all humanity by Their meekness and lowliness accepting bitter persecution to help mankind.
It is not blind obedience that we agree unhesitatingly with whatsoever They reveal, but a conscious acknowledgement that Their very Lives, Person and teachings all point to Them being Divine Beings not ordinary men. That is how we view all of Them and now Baha’u’llah also.
So when it comes to the Gita and Krishna, we see oneness because the scriptures of all Faiths have bridges leading to each other which will ultimately bring great harmony and unity.
People recognised in Them a power and knowledge born of God so followed Them instead of just following their own opinions because they realised their own human knowledge was imperfect but God’s knowledge is infinite and without error.
It is a supreme act of humility to acknowledge ones own limitations and accept and turn to God’s guidance instead of following our imperfect selves.
These Spiritual Beings have established Their spiritual ascendancy over all humanity by Their meekness and lowliness accepting bitter persecution to help mankind.
It is not blind obedience that we agree unhesitatingly with whatsoever They reveal, but a conscious acknowledgement that Their very Lives, Person and teachings all point to Them being Divine Beings not ordinary men. That is how we view all of Them and now Baha’u’llah also.
So when it comes to the Gita and Krishna, we see oneness because the scriptures of all Faiths have bridges leading to each other which will ultimately bring great harmony and unity.
What I have found is that no one will know how much each understands, unless and until they explore what is common thought.
We have much to learn and the only way we will learn is to do it as a united humanity that is wiling to work together.
Regards Tony
In the end Aupmanyav that is what Faith is built upon.
How you choose to see and practice Faith is your choice in life and I wish you naught but the best life can offer.
Personally I see God is known only through the chosen Avatar's who are more then men, yet choose to submit to men by the Message they give. They are the chosen Self of God, from which comes all we can know.
I see the confusion arises when men who are not chosen speak for an Avatar without authority to do so, or put forward their own ideas as an Avatar.
I see my life is fulfilled by submission to God given Avatar's and what they offered.
I see all Avatar's have laid a path to our unity as one human family, where no person suffers absolute poverty or extremes of wealth, where no race or nation dominates another only If we implement what they taught in the age we live.
How do you see the world embracing justice, if it is not via the Message from an Avatar?
I have come to the conclusion that the best thing for this earth is for it to spit all men out, as the more I watch the decay of human morality, the more I wish not to be part of what we are doing to each other and this planet.
Regards Tony
How's your Gita discussion going?
Well done. From what I have read, there is much in the Gita that is compatible.
I see the issue is that for some others they will not see that to be so, but that is OK, as Faith allows for different views.
This is a good one to discuss, chapter 9.
Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 9: The Most Confidential Knowledge
Do you have a preference in translation?
Regards Tony
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Beats 120.
I agree. One problem is definitively attributing any Hindu scriptures to any Avatars. For example how certain can we be that any of the words recorded within the Bhagavad Gita are the exact words spoken by Krishna? That being said, I'm comfortable taking the view the Bhagavad Gita is authentic. However no one can reasonably prove it by using accepted methods of historical analysis.
The problem then becomes whether or not the narratives outlined should be considered as theological or literal truth. Reincarnation is a great example. As you have presented there are verses in the Gita that imply the soul's journey through many worlds of God beyond this mortal life including lives here on earth. Should these verses be regarded as a literal depiction of what actually happens as believed by many Vaishnava or is there latitude for allegorical interpretation as some Baha'is such as myself would take?
This is certainly a phenomenon in many cultures and religions to view certain individuals with such reverence, they are considered closer to God and indeed godlike. There are certainly individuals who are not Avatars who are able to reflect a fuller measure of the reality of Vishnu and can lead souls to more elevated states of being. This in turn raises questions about Moksha and our capacity to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth.
I would cautiously agree.
The nineteenth and twentieth centuries have arguably witnessed dramatic changes for humanity everywhere that are unparalleled in human history. Whether or not Vaishnava will accept Baha'u'llah is not relevant for this Baha'i. For example I see Jesus as being the Promised Jewish Messiah, yet His claims are flatly rejected by most Jews.
if you go through this thread there are Baha'is who have referred to the Gita directly or indirectly. Cheers
The Baha'i writings acknowledge many Manifestations of God, not just the ones commonly known. The reference by Shoghi Effendi to ten Avatars that include Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah is a clearest indication of other Avatars within Hinduism including Rama.
Interestingly, when Arjuna seeks to see the Immortal Self, He is told that earthly eyes cannot behold it only spiritual eyes.
3. Just as you have described your infinite glory, O Lord, now I long to see it. I want to see you as the supreme ruler of creation. 4 O Lord, master of yoga, if you think me strong enough to behold it, show me your immortal Self.
8. But these things cannot be seen with your physical eyes; therefore I give you spiritual vision to perceive my majestic power. (Ch 11 - Gita Easwaran)
This, I believe to be crucial to recognising the Lord Krishna, as seen by material eyes, the vision would be incorrect. Christ said that the pure in heart would see God, so human learning, even being brought up in a tradition doesn’t guarantee true understanding.
As an example, the learned priests in Christ’s day failed to perceive His Spiritual greatness despite being the most literally scriptural learned men of the day. Whereas an unlearned fisherman perceived His station.
Likewise it does not mean that anyone born into a tradition is axiomatically spiritually enlightened and that others with spiritual perception cannot understand.
Spiritual perception is not dependent on human learning or birthright or any material circumstance. According to Lord Krishna in the Gita passages above, it is a gift given by the Lord to whomsoever He wishes. So not having been born in a tradition is no argument for not being able to have been endowed by the Lord to understand its spiritual truths despite having no background in that culture.
In ch 9 verse 32 Krishna verifies that knowledge of Him is not dependent on belonging to a certain race or culture.
All those who take refuge in me, whatever their birth, race, sex, or caste, will attain the supreme goal; this realization can be attained even by those whom society scorns.
Therefore, there is no monopoly by any race or culture on recognising the truth and it can never be claimed according to the above passages that Baha’is cannot understand the Gita because we are ‘outsiders’, for even ‘those whom society scorns’ according to Lord Krishna can attain and reach the supreme goal of seeing the Immortal.
3. Just as you have described your infinite glory, O Lord, now I long to see it. I want to see you as the supreme ruler of creation. 4 O Lord, master of yoga, if you think me strong enough to behold it, show me your immortal Self.
8. But these things cannot be seen with your physical eyes; therefore I give you spiritual vision to perceive my majestic power. (Ch 11 - Gita Easwaran)
This, I believe to be crucial to recognising the Lord Krishna, as seen by material eyes, the vision would be incorrect. Christ said that the pure in heart would see God, so human learning, even being brought up in a tradition doesn’t guarantee true understanding.
As an example, the learned priests in Christ’s day failed to perceive His Spiritual greatness despite being the most literally scriptural learned men of the day. Whereas an unlearned fisherman perceived His station.
Likewise it does not mean that anyone born into a tradition is axiomatically spiritually enlightened and that others with spiritual perception cannot understand.
Spiritual perception is not dependent on human learning or birthright or any material circumstance. According to Lord Krishna in the Gita passages above, it is a gift given by the Lord to whomsoever He wishes. So not having been born in a tradition is no argument for not being able to have been endowed by the Lord to understand its spiritual truths despite having no background in that culture.
In ch 9 verse 32 Krishna verifies that knowledge of Him is not dependent on belonging to a certain race or culture.
All those who take refuge in me, whatever their birth, race, sex, or caste, will attain the supreme goal; this realization can be attained even by those whom society scorns.
Therefore, there is no monopoly by any race or culture on recognising the truth and it can never be claimed according to the above passages that Baha’is cannot understand the Gita because we are ‘outsiders’, for even ‘those whom society scorns’ according to Lord Krishna can attain and reach the supreme goal of seeing the Immortal.
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That to me rings in my ears as naught but truth and opens a whole world of mystical discovery. Also it is in complete harmony with what I am asked to find as a Baha'i.
Regards Tony
And in chapter 12, Krishna goes on to describe the qualities of His true lovers.
13 That one I love who is incapable of ill will, who is friendly and compassionate. Living beyond the reach of “I” and “mine” and of pleasure and pain, 14 patient, contented, self-controlled, firm in faith, with all their heart and all their mind given to me – with such as these I am in love.
Again, this can apply to anyone who loves God not specific to culture, race or tradition. Anyone in the world can fulfil these requirements, of any faith or religion. In all our Houses of Worship all over the world, the Gita is read in all services alongside the Holy Books of the other major religions equally. There is true belief and acknowledgement that it is sacred scripture.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
How does science finds the truth. Not that accepting what some Einstein said as true. Scores, hundreds of people check things claimed. Scores, hundreds of laboratories engage in testing things claimed. What comes out true is then accepted.
But if you go just by faith and accept what some uneducated Iranian said a century and half ago without any evidence and claimed that he is a messenger of Allah, then it is your wish. Generally, people in 21st Century do not accept such things, I have nothing against that. But you might be an exception.
It is a typical Iranian thing. It is recorded that at the time of Iranian revolution, there were 1200 people in Iranian jails claiming that they were saviors, Mahdis.
Common thought is the 'Argumentum ad populum'. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
By personal experience and not by what someone says. When they see that injustice harms everyone.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
'And what is not compatible, we reject.' Is not that smart? Accepted till it suits you.
If Gita says that Krishna is God himself, then you reject it. Not just Gita is rejected that way, but scriptures of all religions.
How does it matter as to who wrote things? What is written is important. Reject what is claimed without any evidence. Hindu scripture were not all written by or ascribed to avataras. Gita is an exception.
Just in the same way, why should any one take the Iranian to be a messenger/manifestation of Allah? Did he present any evidence of the existence of Allah or his being a messenger? If there is no evidence of cycle of rebirth, there is no necessity to believe in one.
Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries are no exceptions. The world has kept changing all the time.
Bahaollah is no Hindu avatara.
You want to take a Vaishnava scripture and apply that to all Hindus? That does not happen. In my belief, there are no God and no avataras.
How can a belief which does not give evidence to what it says be a true belief?
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