Herd immunity has failed in Sweden as another wave hits

[Twilight Hue]

Think how many more would be dead if they hadn't locked down.

They would be dead anyways at some point unless an effective vaccine is produced.

 

[Yerda]

They would be dead anyways at some point unless an effective vaccine is produced.

Ok. I think we can agree on the premise that everyone dies.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Good points.

I think that it might have been within the realm of feasibility for a country like Sweden to manage to sneak through without the most stringent measures. Most of the country is sparse in population compared to Italy or Spain for instance and I'm guessing the modellers saw a possible path to the other side that didn't involve catastrophe for the healthcare system or lockdown. I'm guessing though.

North and South Dakota also have low population densities, yet they lead the world in Covid cases per capita.

 

[ecco]

They would be dead anyways at some point unless an effective vaccine is produced.

We are all going to die sometime. That includes you. So, why don't you go out and get yourself infected? Maybe you will be one of the vast majority who gets only mild symptoms.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We are all going to die sometime. That includes you. So, why don't you go out and get yourself infected? Maybe you will be one of the vast majority who gets only mild symptoms.

I'm out every day and no, I don't wear a mask all the time depending on what others around me are doing.

I accept nature and the risks we face in life and am not concerned about catching Covid-19 myself. If I die, I die. I accept the natural course of nature and I'm no special exception when it comes to our mortality.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I'm out every day and no, I don't wear a mask all the time depending on what others around me are doing.

I accept nature and the risks we face in life and am not concerned about catching Covid-19 myself. If I die, I die. I accept the natural course of nature and I'm no special exception when it comes to our mortality.

I certainly defend your right to be cavalier about your life, but since you can be asymptomatic and pass it to others without knowing, you have no right to be cavalier about the lives of others you come in contact with.

 

[metis]

@Wandering Monk

Exactly, and that's a huge part of the problem why this pandemic has exploded, namely acute self-centeredness that basically forms the "religion" of Me-ism.

 

[viole]

Think how many more would be dead if they hadn't locked down.

Who can say? Maybe more at that time, and less now. In Italy, for instance, they look to be back on square one.

The question of sustainable measures cause more deaths than going in and out of lockdowns. In the long term. Of course, the problem is most countries follow the emotions of the moment.

However, to see what was most effective, The deaths count should be made at the end of all this.

ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

You are ignoring the fact that the illnesses and deaths began to rise after the countries reduced the restrictions and opened up the economy again.


In the US ND and SD have among the highest per capita death rates in the world. The Gov of SD still refuses to issue a mask mandate.

I don’t ignore that. it is actually the main problem of lockdowns.

They are not sustainable, and you need to lift them after a while. Sending you back to square one, as we have seen.

ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I heard that wasn't the actual strategy either.

Was it to keep the economy intact?

Nope. The Swedish economy relies heavily on foreign economies. So to think to keep it intact, would be disingenuous.

The rationale is that sustainable measured can be kept up longer, and cause less problems in the long run. While lockdowns need to be lifted after a while, possibly causing a jo-jo effect.

ciao

- viole

 

[Yerda]

Who can say? Maybe more at that time, and less now. In Italy, for instance, they look to be back on square one.

The question of sustainable measures cause more deaths than going in and out of lockdowns. In the long term. Of course, the problem is most countries follow the emotions of the moment.

However, to see what was most effective, The deaths count should be made at the end of all this.

ciao

- viole

We agree that going in and out of lockown is a pretty terrible state of affairs and that the final analysis will be made afterwards.

So, who can say?

I suppose we could start by asking the people who advised, designed and modelled the different resposes in different countries what they expected under different measures. There was a lot of talk of washing hands in Feb/Mar here (UK). "Flattening the curve" by not attending large gatherings etc. The modellers were saying that we needed a national lockdown or else tens of thosands would die. There was plenty of material published showing what disease spread experts would expect to find under different levels of restriction (schools v no schools, normal shopping v essential shops only etc).

In China they had stay at home orders and shut almost everything. Pretty severe. But it worked and it's hard to see how anything else could have.

 

[viole]

We agree that going in and out of lockown is a pretty terrible state of affairs and that the final analysis will be made afterwards.

So, who can say?

I suppose we could start by asking the people who advised, designed and modelled the different resposes in different countries what they expected under different measures. There was a lot of talk of washing hands in Feb/Mar here (UK). "Flattening the curve" by not attending large gatherings etc. The modellers were saying that we needed a national lockdown or else tens of thosands would die. There was plenty of material published showing what disease spread experts would expect to find under different levels of restriction (schools v no schools, normal shopping v essential shops only etc).

In China they had stay at home orders and shut almost everything. Pretty severe. But it worked and it's hard to see how anything else could have.

I am not a doctor, but probably inducing a coma on every cancer patient will reduce death rate of cancer. The question if that would be acceptable. Probably not.

Same with normal flu. Locking down the whole Northern emisphere, like the Chinese did for Covid, every single winter, would reduce seasonal deaths considerably. Would that be acceptable? Probably not.

Ergo, reducing death rates is not necessarily the only metric we should use, in general.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Yerda]

I am not a doctor, but probably inducing a coma on every cancer patient will reduce death rate of cancer. The question if that would be acceptable. Probably not.

Same with normal flu. Locking down the whole Northern emisphere, like the Chinese did for Covid, every single winter, would reduce seasonal deaths considerably. Would that be acceptable? Probably not.

Ergo, reducing death rates is not necessarily the only metric we should use, in general.

Ciao

- viole

Ok I can agree with that.