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Help Translate Messiah in Isaiah 52:14

rosends

Well-Known Member
Can you show me A Hebrew text of the Gospels/NT?

Or one that is not corrupted like the Masonicus texts that are 1000 years old and contain alterations?

Can you show me that Mashach doesn't mean veil, by providing the "other or correct" meaning?

Can you look up words without my assistance?

I don't mean to be rude but in all honesty the pun is lost in translation and no Hebrew language Gospel exists from the era, they were destroyed.

But I don't imagine it would be difficult to Google such a thing. It's how I inadvertently learned it, so you should have no problem.
You have completely missed the point. You made a positive claim about the spelling and meaning of the word. I have shown you that in Hebrew, there is no word like that. I asked for your source. And now you run back to "look it up yourself."

Your claim has zero backing.

Then you start talking about the gospels in Hebrew, another irrelevant point.

The fact is, the word for Messiah, mashiach, is spelled differently from the root meaning curtain, masach. Two out of the three consonantal components are different. A child who knows only the Hebrew alphabet can see this.

Do you know how to look words up or do you just believe random things you inadvertently find online without any thought on your own?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I can tell you it is, that I didn't make it up, that before vowels the two words would look the same giving us in Hebrew or Aramaic a typical play on words, like I did.
Sure, you can tell me that. I don't believe it, because the claim is wrong on its face.
And you could believe it or not. It is not even hard to verify. A simple Google search would suffice.
If it is simple to show such a word in Hebrew, why don't you do that instead of making an unsubstantiated claim?

Here

Google

The first site has its Hebrew wrong. It writes "mashatz" and thinks it is writing "mashach" so that one proves nothing. The next has the word "veil" on it but in an unrelated section.

Did you have any other "proof" in mind?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Can you show me the word for veil in Hebrew in the text? Mashiach is written with 4 consonants. I am not familiar with any other word using those 4 consonants meaning "veil." The 3 letter construction (mem-shin-chet) also doesn't seem to point to a word meaning "veil" according to my concordance, so I would appreciate any citation you could provide.

According to Check out the translation for 'veil' on Morfix Dictionary there is a word for "veil" as a verb which is misech (mem-samech-chaf sofit) so it is spelled very differently. THAT root also leads to masach, curtain, masach, pour, maseicha mask.

I am actually curious now where I heard this. I did however share it with a gentleman who speaks and reads Hebrew and Greek and he did confirm it.

Meshach is actually Babylonian and the name of a friend of Daniel's which was mostly written in Aramaic. It may be related to the meaning of his name, "renders with force" or something like that.

But I know that I didn't make it up, and that I can't explain it or find it again to help you

But the meaning makes perfect sense, the Messiah WAS split in two, unveiling the Holy of Holies for all the world to gain access.

And again between paganised Paulianity and the Nazarene faith of Jesus and James, PBUT.

The only mystery is where I heard it from. I only trust scholars who have no vested interest in maintaining the status quo in Christianity, Eisenman especially. I don't do so called Christian scholars, you are not a scholar if you only are interested in the things that seem to verify the official story.

I will get to the bottom of it. I can ask the guy who verified it for me. Maybe it is a lost Aramaic word, as none exist that means that veil or curtain.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Sure, you can tell me that. I don't believe it, because the claim is wrong on its face.

If it is simple to show such a word in Hebrew, why don't you do that instead of making an unsubstantiated claim?

Here

Google

The first site has its Hebrew wrong. It writes "mashatz" and thinks it is writing "mashach" so that one proves nothing. The next has the word "veil" on it but in an unrelated section.

Did you have any other "proof" in mind?

No need to get arrogant about it, sometimes it is not possible to prove everything as you would like.

I am not familiar with the sites you are talking about but it seems to me you found and rejected confirmation.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
No need to get arrogant about it, sometimes it is not possible to prove everything as you would like.

I am not familiar with the sites you are talking about but it seems to me you found and rejected confirmation.
You are not familiar with them, but did you even look at them? You claim I found "confirmation" when I made it clear that they provided nothing even close to confirmation. If this is how you draw inference then you will never get clarity.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
No need to get arrogant about it, sometimes it is not possible to prove everything as you would like.

I am not familiar with the sites you are talking about but it seems to me you found and rejected confirmation.

I beg to differ. I told you to do as you wish with the information, not
You are not familiar with them, but did you even look at them? You claim I found "confirmation" when I made it clear that they provided nothing even close to confirmation. If this is how you draw inference then you will never get clarity.


The word you want to investigate is Mishkan or Mischan, which has an n at the end but is otherwise the same word and relevant to the Temple, it has been debated forever what exactly was rent asunder, it was the part of the Temple called the Mishkan.

An extra N doesn't diminish the word play so common in Biblical literature one bit, in fact it is very common.

So it is not the veil that was rent asunder but the Mishkan.

Feel free to disagree, I could not care any less, but you have your answer as promised.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
You are not familiar with them, but did you even look at them? You claim I found "confirmation" when I made it clear that they provided nothing even close to confirmation. If this is how you draw inference then you will never get clarity.

What I think is that, based on what you said you found a word that fits but just not to YOUR liking.

Regardless, I've cleared it up and you can cease complaining about what I do.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I am actually curious now where I heard this. I did however share it with a gentleman who speaks and reads Hebrew and Greek and he did confirm it.
So an unnamed gentleman confirms this. That's nice and useless.
Meshach is actually Babylonian and the name of a friend of Daniel's which was mostly written in Aramaic. It may be related to the meaning of his name, "renders with force" or something like that.
Meshech is a name, but also spelled differently (mem-shin-chaf sofit) -- see Ezekiel 39:1. The Aramaic name is actually Meishach (with a yod as the second letter) so spelled even more differently. The Hebrew root m-sh-ch.sof often refers to a continuation or elongation (see Psalms 36:11).
But I know that I didn't make it up, and that I can't explain it or find it again to help you
So you didn't make it up but have no proof it exists. Got it.
But the meaning makes perfect sense, the Messiah WAS split in two, unveiling the Holy of Holies for all the world to gain access.
Invented things often make perfect sense because they are invented in order to make that sense.

The only mystery is where I heard it from. I only trust scholars who have no vested interest in maintaining the status quo in Christianity, Eisenman especially. I don't do so called Christian scholars, you are not a scholar if you only are interested in the things that seem to verify the official story.
Like perfect, phantom words.
I will get to the bottom of it. I can ask the guy who verified it for me. Maybe it is a lost Aramaic word, as none exist that means that veil or curtain.
a lost Aramaic word that no one knows because it is lost but it exists because someone knows it so it isn't lost, except that no one knows it.

Yeah. Let me know how that pans out.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I beg to differ. I told you to do as you wish with the information, not



The word you want to investigate is Mishkan or Mischan, which has an n at the end but is otherwise the same word and relevant to the Temple, it has been debated forever what exactly was rent asunder, it was the part of the Temple called the Mishkan.

An extra N doesn't diminish the word play so common in Biblical literature one bit, in fact it is very common.

So it is not the veil that was rent asunder but the Mishkan.

Feel free to disagree, I could not care any less, but you have your answer as promised.
Mishkan? Wow -- it doesn't mean veil or curtain. It means place of presence, like the tabernacle in the desert. It can't be torn. Also, it is spelled with a chaf, not a chet, so the extra nun plus a different letter makes it a completely different word.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
What I think is that, based on what you said you found a word that fits but just not to YOUR liking.

Regardless, I've cleared it up and you can cease complaining about what I do.
What have you cleared up other than any uncertainty that you are completely ignorant of Hebrew?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
So an unnamed gentleman confirms this. That's nice and useless.

Meshech is a name, but also spelled differently (mem-shin-chaf sofit) -- see Ezekiel 39:1. The Aramaic name is actually Meishach (with a yod as the second letter) so spelled even more differently. The Hebrew root m-sh-ch.sof often refers to a continuation or elongation (see Psalms 36:11).

So you didn't make it up but have no proof it exists. Got it.

Invented things often make perfect sense because they are invented in order to make that sense.


Like perfect, phantom words.

a lost Aramaic word that no one knows because it is lost but it exists because someone knows it so it isn't lost, except that no one knows it.

Yeah. Let me know how that pans out.

The Mishkan David or Tabernacle of David is a type of the Messiah. Despite your arrogance and determination to illegitimize a perfectly innocent and accurate play on words that you just don't know about, your insistence that I need and don't have proof, it seems rather obvious to me it is over your head or you don't want to believe it, nevertheless it changes not a thing.

Mishkan David/Maschiach Ben David

In other words the Messiah was the dwelling place of David, the first Messiah. Remove the vowels and we are a nun (fish) away from it being the same word. Jesus PBUH was named after Joshua/Jesus of the Tanakh who was the son of Nun.

Certainly the nun or fish has been added to the Messiah, giving us our needed N that makes them, sans vowels, the same exact word.

Quite frankly I have no interest in proving anything, simply I desire to share what I learn. I could literally not care any less about your desire to invalidate an interpretation few know, yourself among them, that is perfectly valid if you understand scripture is esoteric and exoteric.

That you are struggling with the comprehension of the esoteric significance is hardly surprising.

I am surprised at your seeming vindictive attitude regarding something you asked for an explanation for and we're given, and that it apparently means so much to you yet you can't understand it.

Or likely just don't want to.
 
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SethZaddik

Active Member
So an unnamed gentleman confirms this. That's nice and useless.

Meshech is a name, but also spelled differently (mem-shin-chaf sofit) -- see Ezekiel 39:1. The Aramaic name is actually Meishach (with a yod as the second letter) so spelled even more differently. The Hebrew root m-sh-ch.sof often refers to a continuation or elongation (see Psalms 36:11).

So you didn't make it up but have no proof it exists. Got it.

Invented things often make perfect sense because they are invented in order to make that sense.


Like perfect, phantom words.

a lost Aramaic word that no one knows because it is lost but it exists because someone knows it so it isn't lost, except that no one knows it.

Yeah. Let me know how that pans out.


Did you think you said something relevant or anything that renders my valid interpretation... not valid, as though I just simply invented the notion to waste time on the internet lying to people who I have no reason to lie to?

Or that your intended to rebuke me words actually did?

All I see is (likely) a fundamental Christian who doesn't want to know anything other than fundamentalism.

The yoke of religion that is not light, fundamentalism. Literalism is for followers with no creative imagination that think they know all and nobody else a thing (about Paulianity).
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Mishkan David or Tabernacle of David is a type of the Messiah.
A mishkan is a type of messiah? Um...I'll bite...in what sense?
Despite your arrogance and determination to illegitimize a perfectly innocent and accurate play on words that you just don't know about
I have shown that it is inaccurate. You still insist that despite substantial differences in spelling, the words are the same. That's on you.
, your insistence that I need and don't have proof,
do you?
it seems rather obvious to me it is over your head or you don't want to believe it, nevertheless it changes not a thing.
It is over my head because you can't prove it and I have shown how it is wrong? Yeah. That.
Mishkan David/Maschiach Ben David
The phrase "mishkan david" never appears in the entire of the tanach. Inventing a phrase so that you can connect it to something else is not intellectually honest.
In other words the Messiah was the dwelling place of David,
Uh, no. The mishkan was not the dwelling place of David at all.
Remove the vowels and we are a nun (fish) away from it being the same word.
As shown, this simply isn't true. משכן and משיח share only the first 2 letters. That's it. By your logic משזר which shares the same two letters and means "twisted" is the same word also.


Quite frankly I have no interest in proving anything,
Clearly.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Did you think you said something relevant or anything that renders my valid interpretation... not valid, as though I just simply invented the notion to waste time on the internet lying to people who I have no reason to lie to?
If you feel that the actual spelling of the words isn't relevant then that speaks volumes.
Or that your intended to rebuke me words actually did?
How you take them is your business. The fact that you are factually incorrect is all I am trying to point out.
All I see is (likely) a fundamental Christian who doesn't want to know anything other than fundamentalism.[/quote[
That's an amazing observation. Truly unbelievable!
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
If you feel that the actual spelling of the words isn't relevant then that speaks volumes.

How you take them is your business. The fact that you are factually incorrect is all I am trying to point out.

You have a right to your opinion, it doesn't invalidate mine, so I am unconcerned.

If someone shares an interpretation with you it doesn't behoove you to, from a lack of comprehension and in a state of previous unawareness, challenge it as though you know all.

Because I am actually not incorrect, it may not be well known, but all the best information is... not well known.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
A mishkan is a type of messiah? Um...I'll bite...in what sense?

I have shown that it is inaccurate. You still insist that despite substantial differences in spelling, the words are the same. That's on you.

do you?

It is over my head because you can't prove it and I have shown how it is wrong? Yeah. That.

The phrase "mishkan david" never appears in the entire of the tanach. Inventing a phrase so that you can connect it to something else is not intellectually honest.

Uh, no. The mishkan was not the dwelling place of David at all.
As shown, this simply isn't true. משכן and משיח share only the first 2 letters. That's it. By your logic משזר which shares the same two letters and means "twisted" is the same word also.



Clearly.

Oh, snap! Don't hurt my feelings all at once now!

You needn't bite, I already told you, "In what sense."

David absolutely had a Mishkan.
 
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SethZaddik

Active Member
What have you cleared up other than any uncertainty that you are completely ignorant of Hebrew?

Let me know how that attitude pans out!

Were I "completely ignorant of Hebrew" and that statement not just an angry (false) insult, I would never have suggested that which you have yet to comprehend, which I already did understand, and apparently you never will.

Because there was nothing ignorant about what I said. I made a slight error regarding an N but also explained well how it adds to the pun, and doesn't take away from it.

And nothing you say will ever change that and the fact that I am far from ignorant of Hebrew. All it did was show a zeal for dismissiveness on your part and a willingness to assume, erroneously, things about me you could not possibly know.
 
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SethZaddik

Active Member
Oh, snap! Don't hurt my feelings all at once now!
A mishkan is a type of messiah? Um...I'll bite...in what sense?

I have shown that it is inaccurate. You still insist that despite substantial differences in spelling, the words are the same. That's on you.

do you?

It is over my head because you can't prove it and I have shown how it is wrong? Yeah. That.

The phrase "mishkan david" never appears in the entire of the tanach. Inventing a phrase so that you can connect it to something else is not intellectually honest.

Uh, no. The mishkan was not the dwelling place of David at all.
As shown, this simply isn't true. משכן and משיח share only the first 2 letters. That's it. By your logic משזר which shares the same two letters and means "twisted" is the same word also.
Clearly.

Mshcn is Mishkan, Ch is K in Hebrew.
Mshch is Maschiach, with a Nun at the end, instead of h.

Nun means Fish, a symbol of the age of Pisces and Jesus PBUH.

What is the issue is your lack of comprehension of Hebrew word play because of translation much is/was lost that is now known.

Mishkan of David refers to his dwelling, which is covered by a "veil" or a tent.

Messiah ben David was also a dwelling place of David, begotten son of God, or the first Messiah, who un veiled the Holy of Holies.

How? By becoming torn in two himself, by Paul the deciever (Paulis is Syriac/Aramaic for deciever in Mandaean literature) who corrupted his message and spread it as if it were his message, the Messiah was torn to pieces.

Only when you see that can you see through the "veil" and have access to the Holy of Holies.

Jesus himself predicted that would happen in Mt.24

All it takes to make Messiah, Mishkan, in Hebrew, is a fish or Nun. The loss of the H is meaningless and in line with Rabbinical and Kabbalistic methods of interpretation.

Which to be fair is lost on the fundamental Christian.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Mshcn is Mishkan, Ch is K in Hebrew.
Mshc is Maschiach, with a Nun at the end.

Nun means Fish, a symbol of the age of Pisces and Jesus PBUH.

What is the issue is your lack of comprehension of Hebrew word play because of translation much is/was lost that is now known.

Mishkan of David refers to his dwelling, which is covered by a "veil" or a tent.

Messiah ben David was also a dwelling place of David, begotten son of God, or the first Messiah, who un veiled the Holy of Holies.
You're messing up which letters are the roots and which letters are prefixes and suffixes for the word's construct. So far, I've seen you mention a few different roots, not realizing that they're unrelated.

Here they are:

משח - This is the root of the word that means Messiah. In its root form, its a third person masculine verb meaning "anointed". The Messiah is someone who is anointed (as are other kings and prophets). Because anointing was done as a way to appoint someone to an important position, it also became a loanword to indicate appointment or importance, such as when G-d calls Cyrus "His anointed" or when G-d gives the Terumah tithe to Aaron and sons.

משך - This root means to "draw out" (and in context can mean either to "pull" or "continue"). This is the root of one interpretation of Daniel's friend Meishach's (מישך) name (according to Rav Saadiah Gaon) and also for Meshech the son of Japheth.

סכך - This is root means "he covered". Its the root of the noun מסך meaning "curtain". Its found in a number of places in Exodus when referring to curtains that covered entrances.

פרסא - The Aramaic word for curtain. Literally, something that's spread out.​

שכן - This root means "dwell". It also means neighbor (ie. someone who dwells with you). It is the root of "Mishkan" - the place G-d used to dwell with Israel.


I understand that its hard to recognize letters of a language that's unfamiliar. So I'll show them here again for comparison in the same order. I've color coded them so you can easily identify similar letters. The words outside the parenthesis are the three letter verb roots, inside - the nouns in question:

משיח) משח) - m-sh-ḥ becomes moshiaḥ (note the dot under the last 'h' in the root verb and the noun) - Messiah
מישך) משך) - m-s-kh becomes Meishakh (kh as in the German 'ch' in Bach) - Meishakh
מסך) סכך) - s-kh-kh becomes mesekh - veil
משכן) שכן) - sh-kh-n becomes Mishkan - Tabernacle

As you can see these are four different unrelated roots, that when conjugated into nouns they create words that may sound similar to the unfamiliar ear. But once its spelled out, we can easily see that - for instance "Moshiach" and "Mishkan" come from roots that actually only have one letter in common. And the word for "veil" - "mesekh" actually share no root letters with the word for Messiah.

Lastly, the word "Shiloh" has an unclear root. A number of possibilities are given by commentaries. Shalom's root is sh-l-m. It is the Hebrew counterpart to the Arabic word "Salaam". "Islam" isn't derived from the same word.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
You have a right to your opinion, it doesn't invalidate mine, so I am unconcerned.

If someone shares an interpretation with you it doesn't behoove you to, from a lack of comprehension and in a state of previous unawareness, challenge it as though you know all.

Because I am actually not incorrect, it may not be well known, but all the best information is... not well known.
So you insist that despite proof to the contrary, your interpretation is right because the best information is not known? Wow. Just wow.
 
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