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Help Translate Messiah in Isaiah 52:14

SethZaddik

Active Member
Did you mean a mimic?


Kabbalah may share some ideas with Gnosticism, but it isn't Gnostic. That's without a question. All the major Jewish kabbalists were also the biggest fundamentalists. The Zohar is constantly exhorting its students to study and practice Jewish Law - not just correctly, but extra carefully.


Ironic.


Great.


There is an upper and lower Shekhina in kabbalistic thought in Binah and Malchus respectively. But both are feminine aspects. Chochmah is a masculine aspect. Both Sophia and Chochmah mean wisdom. In Gnostic tradition Sophia is a feminine aspect. Do you see the problem?


No, I didn't think you read books at all. But now that you tell me you do, I think you read books and assume everything you read is true because it says it in your books.


Well, I'm not a kabbalist. But I know some bits a pieces since its often quoted in other works on Jewish Law and ethics. Judging from what you've said until now, that's more than you know.


I'm not sure what you're thinking...

The whopping fact of the matter... they didn't call themselves "Gnostics" the RCC did because they believed simply that faith without works was dead, like James said in his Epistle in a not very subtle dig at Paul who insisted it was all that mattered before making up the new law as he insists the Law of Moses "dead" and "a curse" "faith alone justifies us." With Epistle after Epistle of replacement laws dependant upon his creeds and dictates but always insisting that the Law is dead. He was a snake.

They pretty much ignored Paul and if anything deliberately used his words in a completely different meaning than he meant but mocking his theology and ignoring his existence.

They were Sethian or Sethites, Sons of Seth who were believed to be the sons of God/Watchers of Enoch but Seth was one who was not effected by temptation and sin according to Enoch, Jubilees. They had the same names in different books and it is not said but obvious side by side and they must have went with that legend and declared Jehovah to be evil, Samael/Ialdabaoth/Saklas and demiurge. Not the God he says he is, the only God, but he is jealous so he wants people to believe it and did himself once.

Jesus is Seth and Sophia his consort, different women at different times were said to be incarnations, M. Magdala and Norea, wife of Noah but his enemy before deluge who tries to burn the Ark because Noah is being fooled. Shem is good. Then they have Apostles and Christ books too. Thomas, James, John and Philip are good Gospels.

Pistis-Sophia is like a Jesus PBUH Zohar with the 12 Apostles and 7 women disciples, Miriam, Miriam, Martha and Salome and the Apostles all take turns interpreting Jesus Sophia parables with Odes of Solomon and Psalms, Proverbs.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Rabbi Ishmael said to Rabbi Shimon, "David dwelt in a dwelling called "Mishchin" and is the dwelling of the "Maschiach" who will be from David and dwells in David until the King Mashiach comes.

Why does David dwell in the Mishchin? Because other than the Yod(I's sound, letter, is Yod) and the Nun, they are the same. The Mashiach will be like David and from David but named after Yeshua bar Nun. With this prophecy the Messiah can dwell in the Messiah until the Messiah is readied for by the world and Zedek(Righteousness) for if it was a time of great sin that brought about the Messiah he surely would have come twice, three times even.

I wrote this but it is a perfect example of how the Zohar interprets scripture which is not in a fundamental ie literal method, it is considered folly to only read the Torah literally.
No its not. There is no word "Mishchin". Did you mean to say Mishkan? Are you trying to create a link between Moshiach and Mishkan? Is that what you're trying to do here?

Moshiach and Mishkan are spelled with different letters. It looks like you recognize that the letter yod in Moshiach and the letter nun in Mishkan are two of the different letters. But you seem to have ignored the ches in Moshaich vs. the kuf in Mishkan. These two letters aren't pronounced the same. The times letters become interchangeable are if they come out in the same part of one of the five parts of the mouth, or if they fall out into the letter-switching of AT"BaSH, AT"BaCH, or _IQ"BeCHaR. The ches and kaf don't work out in any of these.

What you are trying to do, is copy the format of the Zohar. But the Zohar isn't just a format, its a system and you're not following that here.

Fundamentalism thrives on a narrow literal and one meaning only, literal, method of interpretation and would not be fundamental otherwise.

Books like Zohar might be accepted by Orthodox Judaism but not fundamentalist Judaism.

Same goes for Sufism, widely accepted but not by fundamentalists.

It is why Fundamental Christianity frowns upon... everything including and especially, "Gnosticism" because it has a negative connotation in Christianity. Sufis proclaim themselves Gnostics because Mohammed PBUH stressed knowledge or "gnosis" in Greek.
Jewish fundamentalism (Hebrew: פונדמנטליזם יהודי‎) may refer to[1] militant Religious Zionism[2] or Ashkenazi or Sephardic Haredi Judaism.[2] The term "fundamentalism" was originally used in reference to Christian fundamentalism but today commonly refers to the anti-modernist movements of any religion based on literal interpretation of religious scriptures.[3]
Jewish fundamentalism - Wikipedia

I am an Ashekanzi Haredi. This place is right around the corner from my yeshivah.

Shaar Hashamayim Yeshiva (Hebrew: ישיבת שער השמים‎, lit., "Gate of Heaven") is an Ashkenazi yeshiva in Jerusalem dedicated to the study of the kabbalistic teachings of the Arizal (Rabbi Isaac Luria). It is famous for its student body of advanced kabbalists — many of them roshei yeshiva and Torah scholars — as well as beginning and intermediate scholars who study both the revealed and concealed Torah.

Affiliation Haredi
Shaar Hashamayim Yeshiva - Wikipedia
Book 1 of Ihya ulum al-din is the Book of Knowledge, Gnosis.

It's Sufi literature and means the same kind of knowledge as Gnosis would mean, religous spiritually scientific knowledge.
I'm trying to think why you thought this would be interesting to me and I'm coming up with nothing.

Fundamentalism hates the direct experience with God notion and thrives on mediation and frowns upon meditative practices and spiritual ecstatics.
Do you know what the problem with blanket assumptions are? They're usually wrong.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
That is not a surprise.

"Bits and pieces" of knowledge is not a lot. Definitely not enough to debate with someone who owns and reads the actual literature that is the basis of Kabbalah.

Yet you assert absurdities as fact, ignore the things you wrong about (definition of Mishchin) scrutinize pointless details in a vain attempt to debunk an admitted enigmatic interpretation of scripture and accused me of at least 5 mistakes I didn't make, didn't notice the ones I did make effected nothing and stress points I was not focused on.

The scholars and academics and practitioners of Spiritual or Gnostic practices that admit they are a form of Gnosticism and you assert they are fundamentalist, the opposite of what they are.

Good grief!
This is a rant, not a response.

Yes, it is, by definition, Gnostic.

It strives to know God directly.

That is the definition of "Gnostic."

You obviously associate the term with the extinct sects of ante Nicene days, obviously you don't pay attention to scholarship or academia or you would know it has an expanded definition from its Greek circa 350AD "heresy."

It is used to refer to both Kabbalah and Sufism by the respective practitioners to describe their practices. Gnosis in Kabbalah is Da'ath.
That is the definition of "gnostic" not "Gnostic". Adjectives aren't capitalized in English.

Kabbalah doesn't strive to know G-d directly because according to Judaism and Kabballah that is impossible.

I don't think you know what Da'as is.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
No its not. There is no word "Mishchin". Did you mean to say Mishkan? Are you trying to create a link between Moshiach and Mishkan? Is that what you're trying to do here?

Moshiach and Mishkan are spelled with different letters. It looks like you recognize that the letter yod in Moshiach and the letter nun in Mishkan are two of the different letters. But you seem to have ignored the ches in Moshaich vs. the kuf in Mishkan. These two letters aren't pronounced the same. The times letters become interchangeable are if they come out in the same part of one of the five parts of the mouth, or if they fall out into the letter-switching of AT"BaSH, AT"BaCH, or _IQ"BeCHaR. The ches and kaf don't work out in any of these.

What you are trying to do, is copy the format of the Zohar. But the Zohar isn't just a format, its a system and you're not following that here.


Jewish fundamentalism (Hebrew: פונדמנטליזם יהודי‎) may refer to[1] militant Religious Zionism[2] or Ashkenazi or Sephardic Haredi Judaism.[2] The term "fundamentalism" was originally used in reference to Christian fundamentalism but today commonly refers to the anti-modernist movements of any religion based on literal interpretation of religious scriptures.[3]
Jewish fundamentalism - Wikipedia

I am an Ashekanzi Haredi. This place is right around the corner from my yeshivah.

Shaar Hashamayim Yeshiva (Hebrew: ישיבת שער השמים‎, lit., "Gate of Heaven") is an Ashkenazi yeshiva in Jerusalem dedicated to the study of the kabbalistic teachings of the Arizal (Rabbi Isaac Luria). It is famous for its student body of advanced kabbalists — many of them roshei yeshiva and Torah scholars — as well as beginning and intermediate scholars who study both the revealed and concealed Torah.

Affiliation Haredi
Shaar Hashamayim Yeshiva - Wikipedia

I'm trying to think why you thought this would be interesting to me and I'm coming up with nothing.


Do you know what the problem with blanket assumptions are? They're usually wrong.

Well that is fine because nothing I said was a blanket assumption or wrong, you are merely just a pest who doesn't like to be wrong and thinks they know things they don't.

I can't waste any more of my time arguing with you about your erroneous opinions, false accusations etc.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
This is a rant, not a response.


That is the definition of "gnostic" not "Gnostic". Adjectives aren't capitalized in English.

Kabbalah doesn't strive to know G-d directly because according to Judaism and Kabballah that is impossible.

I don't think you know what Da'as is.

Da'ath is Gnosis so I definitely do, you can't even spell it!

The Tree of Life is described as a roadmap to God, I would say they are, and they do say they are, trying to know God directly.

"Gnosis" is knowledge of a Spiritual nature, and since that is God knowledge I decided to capitalize it myself. What other people do is irrelevant, and adjectives can definitely have capital letters, I know of know rule in English against it but not everyone capitalizes Gnosis.

Which is, again, Da'ath, the hidden Sefira on the Tree of Life.

Think again.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Da'ath is Gnosis so I definitely do, you can't even spell it!
I'm spelling it just fine. The letter in Hebrew that represents the "th" sound is pronounced "s" by Haredi Ashkenazi Jews.

The Tree of Life is described as a roadmap to God, I would say they are, and they do say they are, trying to know God directly.

"Gnosis" is knowledge of a Spiritual nature, and since that is God knowledge I decided to capitalize it myself. What other people do is irrelevant, and adjectives can definitely have capital letters, I know of know rule in English against it but not everyone capitalizes Gnosis.

Which is, again, Da'ath, the hidden Sefira on the Tree of Life.

Think again.
You are not describing Jewish kabballah here. Maybe this is Hermetic Qabballah or Christian. But its not what is described in Jewish sources.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
This is a rant, not a response.


That is the definition of "gnostic" not "Gnostic". Adjectives aren't capitalized in English.

Kabbalah doesn't strive to know G-d directly because according to Judaism and Kabballah that is impossible.

I don't think you know what Da'as is.

But you are right, I have NO idea what Da'as is but then again it is Da'ath not Da'as.

I would hardly call information filled comments rants, but then again I learn first, speak second.

You do the opposite so maybe it seems like a rant because of that, or maybe you just hate being wrong, which is why you should learn first speak second.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
This is not Jewish kabballah. Maybe this is Hermetic Qabballah or Christian. But its not what is described in Jewish sources.

No, the Tree of Life is uniquely Jewish and was adopted by Hermetic Qabalists.

You are not going to trip me up with your faulty understanding of things I understand well, stop trying.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
No, the Tree of Life is uniquely Jewish and was adopted by Hermetic Qabalists.

You are not going to trip me up with your faulty understanding of things I understand well, stop trying.
The concept of "sephiros" and some general attributes were adopted by Hermeticism. But its purpose and understanding was not adopted by Hermetics. Not at all.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
But you are right, I have NO idea what Da'as is but then again it is Da'ath not Da'as.

I would hardly call information filled comments rants, but then again I learn first, speak second.

You do the opposite so maybe it seems like a rant because of that, or maybe you just hate being wrong, which is why you should learn first speak second.

Isaac Luria, of the Jewish Lurianic Kabbalah, came up with the Tree of Life.

Yehuda Ashlag, a Jew, expanded upon it with his Hasulam (the ladder)commentary.

Nice try but Google learning on the fly is not going to be able to compete with my studied learning.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
The concept of "sephiros" and some general attributes were adopted by Hermeticism. But its purpose and understanding was not adopted by Hermetics. Not at all.

Sefira and Sefiroth, not sephiros, are the aspects of the Tree of Life.

You just said Hermetic Qabalists use it and not Jews, now Hermetic Qabalists borrowed a little from the Jews, which is it?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I'm spelling it just fine. The letter in Hebrew that represents the "th" sound is pronounced "s" by Haredi Ashkenazi Jews.


You are not describing Jewish kabballah here. Maybe this is Hermetic Qabballah or Christian. But its not what is described in Jewish sources.

Maybe this is...

But it is not. It has been explained to you and you have just contradicted yourself by saying it not Jewish then that the Hermetic Qabalists borrowed some of it from the Jews who don't use it according to you.

Wow.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Isaac Luria, of the Jewish Lurianic Kabbalah, came up with the Tree of Life.

Yehuda Ashlag, a Jew, expanded upon it with his Hasulam (the ladder)commentary.

Nice try but Google learning on the fly is not going to be able to compete with my studied learning.
No. Rabbi Isaac Luria's student Rabbi Chaim Vital wrote what he learned from his teacher in a number of books, one of which is called the "Tree of Life". But the actual concept predates them by hundreds of years at least.

Rabbi Yehudah Ashlag wrote a commentary on the Zohar called the "Sulam", through which he provides his distinct perspective on many kabbalisitc concepts, the sephiros being only one of them. He also wrote a number of other works. He is one of many Rabbis to have done so.

I'm not using Google.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
The concept of "sephiros" and some general attributes were adopted by Hermeticism. But its purpose and understanding was not adopted by Hermetics. Not at all.

Further, every aspect OF the Tree of Life is a Hebrew Kabbalistic word, Gevurah, Tiferet, Chochmah, Chesed, etc. all Jewish and in the Zohar pre Ashlag and Luria, who made it a whole system.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
No. Rabbi Isaac Luria's student Rabbi Chaim Vital wrote what he learned from his teacher in a number of books, one of which is called the "Tree of Life". But the actual concept predates them by hundreds of years at least.

Rabbi Yehudah Ashlag wrote a commentary on the Zohar called the "Sulam", through which he provides his distinct perspective on many kabbalisitc concepts, the sephiros being only one of them. He also wrote a number of other works. He is one of many Rabbis to have done so.

I'm not using Google.

Whatever you ARE using is pretty bad as a source!
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Sefira and Sefiroth, not sephiros, are the aspects of the Tree of Life.
As with "Da'as", the "th" at the end of the word is being used to represent the Hebrew letter ת. Ashkenazi Jews pronounce this letter as "s". I am saying the same thing as you, just using my sects customary pronunciation.

You just said Hermetic Qabalists use it and not Jews, now Hermetic Qabalists borrowed a little from the Jews, which is it?

Maybe this is...

But it is not. It has been explained to you and you have just contradicted yourself by saying it not Jewish then that the Hermetic Qabalists borrowed some of it from the Jews who don't use it according to you.

Wow.

No. I said Hermetic Qabbalists use the idea of "sephiros" and the names and minor attributes of them. But the depth of understanding behind it as conceptualized by Jewish kabbalists is not present in Hermetic Qabbalah. In other words, they took the same names to represent somewhat different ideas.

If you can't understand what that means, I'm not really sure how to help you.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
No. Rabbi Isaac Luria's student Rabbi Chaim Vital wrote what he learned from his teacher in a number of books, one of which is called the "Tree of Life". But the actual concept predates them by hundreds of years at least.

Rabbi Yehudah Ashlag wrote a commentary on the Zohar called the "Sulam", through which he provides his distinct perspective on many kabbalisitc concepts, the sephiros being only one of them. He also wrote a number of other works. He is one of many Rabbis to have done so.

I'm not using Google.

Oh, well if it predates them (not likely outside the Zohar itself) it would be impossible for the Hermetic Qabalists to have created it, they didn't exist yet.

But you are running from that errant statement as you do all your errant statements, and in the process have proven that your claim to it being Christian Cabala or Hermetic Qabala is patently ridiculous and yourself unreliable.

Good job!
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Further, every aspect OF the Tree of Life is a Hebrew Kabbalistic word, Gevurah, Tiferet, Chochmah, Chesed, etc. all Jewish
Yes, that's what I said. The names are Jewish, but what the full depth of what they represent is not present in Hermetic Qabbalah.

and in the Zohar pre Ashlag and Luria, who made it a whole system.
No, he didn't systemize the sephiros. He expounded and expanded on it.

Whatever you ARE using is pretty bad as a source!
I'm using Jewish books on kabbalah...
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
As with "Da'as", the "th" at the end of the word is being used to represent the Hebrew letter ת. Ashkenazi Jews pronounce this letter as "s". I am saying the same thing as you, just using my sects customary pronunciation.





No. I said Hermetic Qabbalists use the idea of "sephiros" and the names and minor attributes of them. But the depth of understanding behind it as conceptualized by Jewish kabbalists is not present in Hermetic Qabbalah. In other words, they took the same names to represent somewhat different ideas.

If you can't understand what that means, I'm not really sure how to help you.

I understand you flat out denied the Tree of Life was Jewish as we know it.

And are backpedaling to distract from that blunder.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Oh, well if it predates them (not likely outside the Zohar itself) it would be impossible for the Hermetic Qabalists to have created it, they didn't exist yet.

But you are running from that errant statement as you do all your errant statements, and in the process have proven that your claim to it being Christian Cabala or Hermetic Qabala is patently ridiculous and yourself unreliable.

Good job!
I haven't said that Hermetic Qabbalists created the system this entire time. So I guess this means that you weren't able to understand what I said.
 
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