Hammer and sickle?

[Lyndon]

So where are all these communists, I haven't met any in America

 

[RestlessSoul]

So where are all these communists, I haven't met any in America

Have you looked under the bed?

 

[Regiomontanus]

They take it from the owners.

Yet another good reason to avoid communism.
Those goatherds spawned a legacy of conquest,
oppression, slavery, & ignorance.

Tell us how you really feel about the Christians.

Anyway, those early Christians hardly spawned anything like that. If you knew your history better you would know that. That the Roman empire appropriated it for imperial ends is obvious.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Unlike those of you who want socialism for personal gain,
I favor capitalism because it's simply the best for all.

Yes all, if by that you mean only people but not the rest of the biosphere.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think the OPs ridiculous premise is that Democrats are Communists when in fact Communists in America only make up less than 1% of the population.

I'm pretty sure Democrats will be pushing for social scores any day now.

 

[Revoltingest]

Tell us how you really feel about the Christians.

That was how I see Christianity's checkered record.
(Please excuse the rhyme....I couldn't stop myself.)
But individual Christians....they range from the dregs
to very fine people...better people than I am.

Anyway, those early Christians hardly spawned anything like that. If you knew your history better you would know that. That the Roman empire appropriated it for imperial ends is obvious.

The Crusades, Manifest Destiny, slavery, Gott Mit Uns, child abuse, etc.
I did learn meself a wee bit'o history.
But I also recognize that those horrors attach to only some Christians.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes all, if by that you mean only people but not the rest of the biosphere.

Capitalism, socialism, communism....no economic system
is about preserving the natural environment. No system
is without sin (especially the USSR & PRC).
Environmental conservation is an add-on....one that I favor.
And remember....I am a fervent running dog of capitalism.
Also a running dog of environmentalism, I suppose.

 

[Stevicus]

That was how I see Christianity's checkered record.
(Please excuse the rhyme....I couldn't stop myself.)
But individual Christians....the range from the dregs
to very fine people...better people than I am.

The Crusades, Manifest Destiny, slavery, Gott Mit Uns, child abuse, etc.
I did learn meself a wee bit'o history.
But I also recognize that those horrors attach to only some Christians.

The Crusades, Manifest Destiny, and slavery were capitalist horrors, although I recognize that those horrors attach to only some capitalists.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Crusades, Manifest Destiny, and slavery were capitalist horrors, although I recognize that those horrors attach to only some capitalists.

The Crusades was "capitalist"?
Hah!
Socialists were/are also big on conquest & enslaving people.
But this conversation you jumped into is about Christianity
& Christians. Historically, they perpetrated those evils.

 

[Stevicus]

The Crusades was "capitalist"?
Hah!
Socialists were/are also big on conquest & enslaving people.
But this conversation you jumped into is about Christianity
& Christians. Historically, they perpetrated those evils.

If there was an economic motivation to it, then it's capitalism, not Christianity. The Crusades were as much about trade and economics as anything else. Slavery is purely about greed, so that's also on capitalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

If there was an economic motivation to it, then it's capitalism, not Christianity. The Crusades were as much about trade and economics as anything else. Slavery is purely about greed, so that's also on capitalism.

Socialists & commies also have economic motivation.
And many people were killed & enslaved to further it.

What is it with fans of socialism? Are they entirely
blind to evil that always happens under their system?
But see only evil under capitalism?

 

[Stevicus]

Socialists & commies also have economic motivation.
And many people were killed & enslaved to further it.

What is it with fans of socialism? Are they entirely
blind to evil that always happens under their system?
But see only evil under capitalism?

Well, it depends on the motive, whether it's to advance the well-being of the collective whole, or whether it's just to enrich a few select people. If all people are considered equal and treated the same, there can be no predation. I'm not denying that there have been abuses under socialism, but that's because of individuals only thinking of themselves, not for the collective - which would be against the principles of socialism.

However, seeking profit and material gain no matter what is a capitalist principle. Warmongering, expansionism, and slavery are in line with capitalist principles, since the motive is profit. I realize that individual capitalists may claim to be against slavery and war, but that's just their own personal add-on. Capitalism is strictly about making money.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it depends on the motive...

If a religion has tenets that allow such evils
then this is a problem with that religion.

...whether it's to advance the well-being of the collective whole, or whether it's just to enrich a few select people. If all people are considered equal and treated the same, there can be no predation. I'm not denying that there have been abuses under socialism, but that's because of individuals only thinking of themselves, not for the collective - which would be against the principles of socialism.

However, seeking profit and material gain no matter what is a capitalist principle. Warmongering, expansionism, and slavery are in line with capitalist principles, since the motive is profit. I realize that individual capitalists may claim to be against slavery and war, but that's just their own personal add-on. Capitalism is strictly about making money.

Your post uses no standard definition of capitalism.
It only criticizes capitalism for historical things disliked.
It ignores the positives that so many capitalist countries
exhibit.
Let's try applying your post's approach to socialism....
Socialism is all about expanding the hive, conquering
all who stand in the way, taking their resources, &
enslaving the people to work for collective. Free
speech is banned. Trials guarantee conviction. Art
is controlled by government. And the cars are ugly.
This is the history of your socialist countries.
Why on Earth would anyone want to replace capitalism
with that nightmare?

 

[Lyndon]

Governments just tend to be evil, doesn't matter if theyre communist, socialist, capitalist, anarchists, libertarians, christian, atheist, buddhist, hindu etc etc, they all do bad things, that doesn't mean they all treat people equally

 

[Stevicus]

If a religion has tenets that allow such evils
then this is a problem with that religion.

There's still a question as to whether the tenets (on paper) actually "allow" such evils, or if it's the result of evil men refusing to follow their own stated principles.

Your post uses no standard definition of capitalism.

The underlying principle of capitalism, however you slice it, is profit and making money. Am I right or wrong on this point?

It only criticizes capitalism for historical things disliked.

Just as you are doing.

It ignores the positives that so many capitalist countries
exhibit.

Capitalism didn't start to become even slightly "positive" until after FDR, who clipped their wings a bit and favored social programs. The liberals and progressives who restrained capitalism are the only ones who made anything positive about it - but that's despite capitalism, not because of it.

Let's try applying your post's approach to socialism....
Socialism is all about expanding the hive, conquering
all who stand in the way, taking their resources, &
enslaving the people to work for collective.

The collective is the people as a whole, so are the people enslaving themselves? I don't think so. They're all working for a common goal, a common benefit. Socialists don't "conquer," they liberate people from their capitalist overlords. The people are equal, and all resources are shared.

Free
speech is banned.

Wrong. The Soviet Constitution of 1936, Chapter X, Article 125:

ARTICLE 125. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system, the citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed by law:

1. freedom of speech;
2. freedom of the press;
3. freedom of assembly, including the holding of mass meetings;
4. reedom of street processions and demonstrations.

These civil rights are ensured by placing at the disposal of the working people and their organizations printing presses, stocks of paper, public buildings, the streets, communications facilities and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.

1936 Constitution of the USSR, TOC (bucknell.edu)

Trials guarantee conviction.

When?

Art
is controlled by government.

No it isn't.

And the cars are ugly.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

This is the history of your socialist countries.
Why on Earth would anyone want to replace capitalism
with that nightmare?

If what you're saying is true, why wouldn't capitalists learn to restrain themselves so as to make the workers happy and decrease any popular resentment or calls for class warfare? In every country where socialists took over, the capitalists practically handed it to them on a silver platter by their incessant myopic greed, which weakened their countries and built up such a volcanic resentment among the people.

 

[Revoltingest]

There's still a question as to whether the tenets (on paper) actually "allow" such evils, or if it's the result of evil men refusing to follow their own stated principles.

Sounds like the No True Scotsman argument.
Scripture can be so vague & open to variied interpretations
that one cannot reasonably claim it means only one thing.
Thus, religion is as the religion does.

The underlying principle of capitalism, however you slice it, is profit and making money. Am I right or wrong on this point?

Your post pares away other significant traits.
This might help....
Capitalism - Wikipedia
Excerpted....
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3][4] Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, a price system, private property and the recognition of property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labor.[5][6] In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investments are determined by every owner of wealth, property or production ability in capital and financial markets whereas prices and the distribution of goods and services are mainly determined by competition in goods and services markets.[7]

Just as you are doing.

You're wrong here.
I've considered all socialist countries in history.
They're 100% economic & socially oppressive.
Such is how socialism tends to play out in the real world.
As for capitalist countries, there is a wide range of outcomes.
I've not claimed that all are wonderful. Only that the better
examples of capitalist countries are superior to every example
of socialist countries.
This should not be read to say that capitalist countries have no flaws.
I've never claimed that at all.

I think that addresses the rest of your post.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I once had a sneaking admiration for Leon Trotsky. Now I prefer Leo Tolstoy, whose enduring legacy is far more benign.

Trotsky had better facial hair than Lenin, and considerably less ego. All those Bolsheviks were utterly ruthless ********, but when your enemy is the Tsarist regime, that’s hardly surprising. Our enemies define us, if we let them.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Capitalism, socialism, communism....no economic system
is about preserving the natural environment. No system
is without sin (especially the USSR & PRC).
Environmental conservation is an add-on....one that I favor.
And remember....I am a fervent running dog of capitalism.
Also a running dog of environmentalism, I suppose.

Now I remember that socialism is your trigger word

 

[Revoltingest]

Now I remember that socialism is your trigger word

"Communism" could become a trigger too.
But even the socialists here shy away from
advocating that further descent into hell.

 

[Kooky]

There's been some woe in the mid-east too.

That's gotta be the goatherds. Goats and cattle are clearly the root of all evil.