Hamas vs. Israel, a thought experiment

[Debater Slayer]

I don't even know what his argument is.
It's interesting to discover that I challenged it.

He details it in the video. I find it to be yet more one-sided pro-Israel rhetoric that doesn't acknowledge the decades-long issues that it has perpetuated and refused to properly address.

 

[Revoltingest]

He details it in the video.

I generally avoid video screeds.

 

[Magic Man]

I have had enough of RF. You people disgust me.

@Quagmire and @Debater Slayer Gentlemen, please cancel my membership on RF. Thank you.

I rarely stop by these days, but it's nice to see you haven't changed. Even the performative nature of your condescension is still intact (since, as I'm sure you're aware, you don't publicly ask mods to cancel your membership; you either stop coming here or delete your own profile without need to tell anyone.)

 

[Magic Man]

Courtesy of the Sam Harris podcast:

We know Hamas uses Palestinian women and children as shields. Rightly knowing that Israelis will tend to hold back.

Now imagine the reverse. Imagine Israelis using their women and children as shields. Imagine Hamas's response.

Not all cultures are - in 2023 - equally moral.

I was curious what this would be about when I clicked on the threat. Then I saw Sam Harris. That's a terrible way to start any thread, much less one on this topic.

Also, if killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians is "Israel holding back", I'd hate to see what they do when they're not holding back.

I really don't understand the obsession with this whole "Hamas uses human shields" business. Who cares? Why is that such an important part of this for people?

I don't support Hamas's actions, but Israel sure does get a pass for all the horror they inflict on the Palestinians.

 

[Magic Man]

Hamas celebrates killing civilians like women and children. Israel expresses regret and remorse for the collateral damage it causes when retaliating. Very different morals.

Israel expresses regret and remorse for the "collateral damage" they cause when seeking revenge. The same way an abusive partner expresses regret at having to teach their partner a lesson. If Israel actually felt regret and remorse, they would just go ahead and not kill innocent people.

 

[metis]

Israel expresses regret and remorse for the "collateral damage" they cause when seeking revenge. The same way an abusive partner expresses regret at having to teach their partner a lesson. If Israel actually felt regret and remorse, they would just go ahead and not kill innocent people.

So, what would you propose Israel do, just roll over and play dead?

 

[England my lionheart]

I didn't mean to support Hamas if it came across that way, they are clearly the greater evil.

It’s ok ,Britain Australia Germany America France have thousands that support terrorists as seen in the demonstrations,they celebrate the attack like it’s an ok event and a victory and they’re a long way from where it’s happening,so brave.

 

[Alien826]

I don't even know what his argument is.
It's interesting to discover that I challenged it.

There you see? You can be wonderful without even trying!

 

[Orbit]

So, what would you propose Israel do, just roll over and play dead?

I'm not understanding what would make you say that. It seems a bit hyperbolic. Acknowledging that we have a complicated situation between the two parties is not to say "Israel should roll over and play dead".

I realize that emotions are running high, and that's understandable. I have a friend (Jewish American) who moved to Israel last year, and is currently keeping us updated on Facebook with what is happening there. I also have friends who are Jewish here in U.S., including one rabbi, so I've heard a spectrum of opinions about the current situation from them. My husband has an Israeli Jewish friend (born there), and in his conversations with us on the internet, he says his greatest frustration is that Americans don't understand the history of the region. What I'm saying is that I can both support my Jewish friends AND see that many Palestinians have legitimate issues that need some resolution.

What is the solution? I really don't know. But I know the cycle of violence must stop, and we will never do that by racheting up the rhetoric that encourages it. My basic position is that two wrongs don't make a right---for anyone involved.

 

[England my lionheart]

Israel expresses regret and remorse for the "collateral damage" they cause when seeking revenge. The same way an abusive partner expresses regret at having to teach their partner a lesson. If Israel actually felt regret and remorse, they would just go ahead and not kill innocent people.

Why then did HAMAS?,imo it was to get the result they wanted and got but not the return they expected because in the normal state of affairs the various terrorist organisations like the PLO Islamic Jihad Hamas knew from history that Israel should use restraint so back to square one,no conclusion but this time Israel wants one.

 

[syo]

Courtesy of the Sam Harris podcast:

We know Hamas uses Palestinian women and children as shields. Rightly knowing that Israelis will tend to hold back.

Now imagine the reverse. Imagine Israelis using their women and children as shields. Imagine Hamas's response.

Not all cultures are - in 2023 - equally moral.

Hamas and Israel both managed to encourage cheap philosophy. Why am I not surprised?

 

[Revoltingest]

There you see? You can be wonderful without even trying!

Tis a gift or a curse?

 

[metis]

I'm not understanding what would make you say that. It seems a bit hyperbolic. Acknowledging that we have a complicated situation between the two parties is not to say "Israel should roll over and play dead".

I realize that emotions are running high, and that's understandable. I have a friend (Jewish American) who moved to Israel last year, and is currently keeping us updated on Facebook with what is happening there. I also have friends who are Jewish here in U.S., including one rabbi, so I've heard a spectrum of opinions about the current situation from them. My husband has an Israeli Jewish friend (born there), and in his conversations with us on the internet, he says his greatest frustration is that Americans don't understand the history of the region. What I'm saying is that I can both support my Jewish friends AND see that many Palestinians have legitimate issues that need some resolution.

What is the solution? I really don't know. But I know the cycle of violence must stop, and we will never do that by racheting up the rhetoric that encourages it. My basic position is that two wrongs don't make a right---for anyone involved.

As I just posted to you on a similar thread, we're good as I now understand more where you're coming from, and I largely agree.

 

[England my lionheart]

I don’t expect anything but. There comes a time to rise up, no?

Think of it as like being born into a religion,your born and your future is already decided,in this case to eradicate Jews who are hiding behind the Gharked tree,there’s really no choice,it’s my way or reversed kneecaps way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Israel expresses regret and remorse for the "collateral damage" they cause when seeking revenge.

Why do you characterize it as seeking revenge, as opposed to seeking the elimination of a barbarous malignant threat?

 

[1137]

It’s ok ,Britain Australia Germany America France have thousands that support terrorists as seen in the demonstrations,they celebrate the attack like it’s an ok event and a victory and they’re a long way from where it’s happening,so brave.

Yeah it's hugely disappointing.

 

[sayak83]

I continue to understand that casualties are out of balance. That doesn't make your psychopath analogy work any better. The Palestinians VOTED to let the psychopath lead them. The UN knows the psychopath is leading them and does nothing. And so on...

You are aware that mafia gangs etc seek to hide their work by cultivating support in and giving favors to the local population? It's one of the most universal features of how criminal networks and gangs operate. If the psycopath analogy is too specific, expand it to a criminal gang vs police in a neighborhood and the same narrative applies.

 

[icehorse]

You are aware that mafia gangs etc seek to hide their work by cultivating support in and giving favors to the local population? It's one of the most universal features of how criminal networks and gangs operate. If the psycopath analogy is too specific, expand it to a criminal gang vs police in a neighborhood and the same narrative applies.

So if Hamas is like a criminal gang (so far so good), and everyone knows it, why does the UN put up with it? Perhaps more to the point, why do the regional Islamic brothers of the Palestinians - their neighbors - allow the criminal gang to continue to oppress their brothers year after year?

 

[sayak83]

So if Hamas is like a criminal gang (so far so good), and everyone knows it, why does the UN put up with it? Perhaps more to the point, why do the regional Islamic brothers of the Palestinians - their neighbors - allow the criminal gang to continue to oppress their brothers year after year?

You think Israel will allow Egyptian millitary in Gaza? And why would Egypt care. Israel conquered Gaza from them. It's the headache of the conqueror is it not?
I have already discussed UN with you separately.

 

[InChrist]

If Hamas kills x Israelis as vengeance for Israeli oppression,
& Israel responds by killing 2x Palestinians as vengeance,
they certainly aren't equally moral.
Israel is a thug state that places low value on non-Jewish lives.

False!!!
Israel is a tiny little nation about the size of NJ, surrounded by Arab nations. Since it’s re-establishment in 1948 Israel has had to fight just to survive and remain in existence because so many of the peoples around them what to see Israel annihilated.