God's Infinite Love and Hiroshima

[ArtieE]

Indeed......the Bible indicates that there is a judgment coming that no one of will be able to avoid. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Certainly not you, given that you are a Jehovah's Witness despite knowing how many false prophecies Jehovah's Witnesses have produced over the years. What view do you think god takes of supporters of organizations who publish false prophecies willy-nilly?
Failed date predictions of Jehovah's Witnesses

 

[rusra02]

So God created an imperfect man that creates wars. He also created a stubborn Japanese government that didn't want to surrender until after two of their cities were nuked. Hmmm... they don't talk about "fear of God" for nothing!

God created a perfect man with free will, who used that free will to rebel against God. Since then, most humans have followed the same course Adam did. The sad results of this are the wars and violence that has filled the earth. It is man's doing, not God's, IMO.

 

[agorman]

No, actually, he created perfect humans with free will. The decision to create war was man's not God's. The knowledge of good and evil was kept from humans initially because God knew it would not benefit them in any way. But taking that knowledge against God's only command, abusing the free will he had given them, placed them on a path to ruin. Man hasn't stopped finding excuses to kill ever since.

So free will and distinguishing good from evil is bad? (!) No wonder Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate from the "apple". If you don't have free will and you can't say what's good and what's wrong you are nothing but a stupid sheep! What did God expect? Adam and Eve were animals that could have done everything! And that's what Abrahamic religions want! Sheeple! Led by an elite of preachers.

BTW, if He's omniscient then God knew Humans would disobey.

The Bible warns against pride, does it not? In Japanese culture, it was the greatest human failure to 'lose face' (be humiliated)....and the greatest act of valor to die for the Emperor. Those were very dangerous attributes to bring into a war.

Can you be a humble warrior? Or the best warrior is really the one who humbles the enemy? The Japanese gov. was not only proud but irrational; they thought they could win on the USA. LOL! they were so innocent. A dog facing an elephant. Yes, a dog can be very brave but the Elephant will sooner o later crush the pesky dog.

The fact that it was so called "Christian" nations who developed those nuclear weapons, and then unleashed them on human beings, shows that Christ was never in their thoughts, let alone their churches.

I don't know; Christ said "Whoever is not with me is against me".

Indeed......the Bible indicates that there is a judgment coming that no one of will be able to avoid. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Aren't you guys ever afraid to offend God for considering Him as cruel as He's depicted in the Bible? I would be offended if I'd be described as a guy who orders to stone everyone that contradicts my will. And if a writer would say I'd bring the End of the World so I could destroy everyone who's not on my side.

Christians, Jews, Muslims... when are you going to realize that the "God" described in the Bible was based on human tyrannical kings of ancient times?

 

[syo]

How might these relate to one another?

if god is not in the heart of people, evil things happen.

 

[ArtieE]

God created a perfect man with free will, who used that free will to rebel against God. Since then, most humans have followed the same course Adam did. The sad results of this are the wars and violence that has filled the earth. It is man's doing, not God's, IMO.

Don't you mean "An omniscient God created a perfect man with free will knowing full well that it would result in wars and violence filling the earth but did it anyway"?

 

[Deeje]

What was kept from humans? The knowledge that there are good things and evil things, or the knowledge about which things are good and which things are evil?

Humans were not permitted to make their own decisions about what was good or evil...that was the point. That decision was to be God's, not theirs. They were to simply obey their Creator and enjoy the everlasting life he purposed for them in the most perfect conditions. Don't all parents just want their kids to do as they are told? Why is that? Isn't it because what we tell them to do is for their own good? We want them to avoid the pitfalls that come from making bad choices.....don't we? "Don't touch the hot stove"...."don't walk too close to the edge"..."don't hang around people who will be a bad influence on you".....is this just an impingement on their personal freedom? Do we tell these things because we just want to be mean to them....or is it because we love them?

Free will was a wonderful gift without a knowledge of evil. But once that knowledge was taken into hands that were not designed to cope with the results of it.....evil acts followed. Within one generation a murderer was produced......why? Because Cain was jealous of the favor shown to his more righteous brother....and he plotted to kill him, despite being warned that his attitude was all wrong. Here we are thousands of years into the future...and we are still killing our brothers. What was the benefit of doing things "their" way?

We all know that experience is the best teacher and God has allowed us to see where our choices will lead us. No matter what time period any of us have lived in, the lessons are the same....what have we learned?....that the abuse of free will has never benefited anyone.

 

[Deeje]

Certainly not you, given that you are a Jehovah's Witness despite knowing how many false prophecies Jehovah's Witnesses have produced over the years. What view do you think god takes of supporters of organizations who publish false prophecies willy-nilly?
Failed date predictions of Jehovah's Witnesses

That skewed stuff is from our opposers. Actually we have not had failed predictions as much as we have had failed expectations.

The prophesy that is being fulfilled right under our noses has been the same one all along. (Matthew 24:3) We just got the timing wrong. That is nothing new, since the apostles got the timing wrong too....expecting Jesus to set up his Kingdom back in the first century. (Acts 1:6) Because of the wonderful benefits that the Kingdom will bring, all of Christ's disciples have always eagerly anticipated its arrival. Nothing wrong with that.
As the apostle Paul wrote..."We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm". (Hebrews 6:19) Our hope is still firmly anchored.

When Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour" (Matthew 24:37-39)...he meant it. Nevertheless, he also told his disciples to "keep on the watch" (Matthew 24:43-44)
That is why we have a Watchtower as our logo. When the watchmen guarded the city from the watchtower, if he saw something in the distance that he wasn't sure of, he sounded an alarm. That put the city on notice in case there was an approaching threat. If it proved to be a false alarm, everyone went back to their business and carried on as usual. This is what we have done. It seems to bother a lot of people outside of our organization way more than it bothers us. And we have never predicted a "day or hour"...all we have done is indicate that a specific year might be the one.....it wasn't, and we have carried on with the work Jesus assigned to us. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) "The end" will not come until every last sheep is in the pen......its our choice to be there....or not.

 

[Deeje]

Don't you mean "An omniscient God created a perfect man with free will knowing full well that it would result in wars and violence filling the earth but did it anyway"?

Just because God is omniscient and 'can' know everything, doesn't mean he chooses to. Because he gave humans free will, nothing was cast in concrete.....they could have made other choices which would have brought about a different outcome. He allowed it to be their choice and he would then implement a way for us all to return to square one.

Your limited view does not allow you to see beyond your own stilted reasoning.

 

[Confucian Mormon Buddhist]

How might these relate to one another?

They don't? It's not like God doesn't occasionally sanction wars (see, say, Israel vs. Jericho).

 

[ArtieE]

Humans were not permitted to make their own decisions about what was good or evil...that was the point. That decision was to be God's, not theirs. They were to simply obey their Creator and enjoy the everlasting life he purposed for them in the most perfect conditions. Don't all parents just want their kids to do as they are told? Why is that? Isn't it because what we tell them to do is for their own good? We want them to avoid the pitfalls that come from making bad choices.....don't we? "Don't touch the hot stove"...."don't walk too close to the edge"..."don't hang around people who will be a bad influence on you".....is this just an impingement on their personal freedom? Do we tell these things because we just want to be mean to them....or is it because we love them?

So are you living your life obeying your god twenty four hours a day seven days a week or do you have any free will to disobey?

 

[ArtieE]

That skewed stuff is from our opposers. Actually we have not had failed predictions as much as we have had failed expectations.

Here is another article about this subject. I will just leave it up to the other readers of this thread to decide.
"The Jehovah’s Witnesses are the undisputed world champions of false prophecy."
The Jehovah's Witnesses | Lamb and Lion Ministries

 

[ArtieE]

Just because God is omniscient and 'can' know everything, doesn't mean he chooses to.

Omniscient literally means "knowing everything". There is no such thing as "choosing" not to know something for a being who knows everything. If he had "chosen" to not know something he wouldn't be omniscient.

Because he gave humans free will, nothing was cast in concrete.....they could have made other choices which would have brought about a different outcome.

And being omniscient he would know every outcome.

Your limited view does not allow you to see beyond your own stilted reasoning.

And your view is proven wrong by simple logic and reasoning.

 

[Deeje]

So are you living your life obeying your god twenty four hours a day seven days a week or do you have any free will to disobey?

Everyone has free will to either obey or disobey. It's about being able to evaluate the outcome of your decision either way.

If a certain course carried a warning about a guaranteed adverse outcome, but someone invalidated that warning, assuring you that nothing bad would happen....in fact you would be better off.... if you ignored the warning in the belief that you could disobey that warning with impunity, could you complain if your choice resulted in tragedy? That was the situation in Eden. Unless they could make a choice, (even a bad one) it wasn't free will.

Omniscient literally means "knowing everything". There is no such thing as "choosing" not to know something for a being who knows everything. If he had "chosen" to not know something he wouldn't be omniscient.

No, according to Wiki..... "Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/,[1] mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know."

You see, it is "the capacity to know everything". In order for free will to be truly free, God can allow us to make our own decisions without necessarily having to know that choice in advance. To my understanding, once a decision is made, then God can see where it would lead, so that he can plan for the outcome whilst still carrying out his original purpose for us and this earth. We are designed to learn from experience, but the imperfection that came with disobedience means that we often choose to ignore lessons from the past....history repeats because we refuse to learn from our collective mistakes.

And being omniscient he would know every outcome.

We have to understand why God does not interfere with our decisions......humans basically thought that they would be better off making their decisions without God. So he stepped out to allowed us to reap what we sow. He gave us a guidebook with instructions on how not to make bad decisions, but we humans still think we know better.

The Bible says that 'God knows from the beginning, the finale' which means that once an action is initiated, God can then see where that action will lead and how best to incorporate it into the outworking of his purpose. It is how he can have prophesy written, by looking into the future and telling us how important human decisions will turn out. Since we do not possess that capacity, it is rather foolish to ignore the one who can already tell us what to expect.

By just obeying one simple command, instead of deciding to trust themselves, the first humans could have averted all the tragedy that humans have experienced in all of their history. Using all this experience, God has created precedents for all eternity, proving that independence from him is not as attractive as it appears to be. Those who refuse to obey him, despite all that they have wrought on themselves by ignoring him, will forfeit their right to live on his earth. They will be evicted, like the bad tenants they are. You can't ignore the terms of your tenancy and trash the Landlord's property and expect to stay.....can you?

 

[Deeje]

And your view is proven wrong by simple logic and reasoning.

IMO, your logic is flawed and your reasoning is too......for all the reasons stated above.

 

[ArtieE]

No, according to Wiki..... "Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/,[1] mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know."

You see, it is "the capacity to know everything".

Omniscient means "one who has total knowledge". It literally means "all-knowing". omniscient - Wiktionary
But that would mean that God has no free will. Is Omniscience Possible? Does God Know Everything? He would know what has happened, is happening, and will happen. But since he already knows what will happen he is powerless to change it. In which case he's not omnipotent.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If human beings can even conceive of such heinous weaponry, let alone unleash it on others humans, what does that say about what we as a race, alienated from God, are capable of doing to each other....and to the only 'home' we have?

To be fair, God did the 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' thing before us. And we're created in his image.

 

[Deeje]

To be fair, God did the 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' thing before us. And we're created in his image.

Yes, but the one thing we humans don't have is the right to indiscriminately take human life. The Creator can give it, and he can take it away at his own discretion, for his own reasons, having the ability to restore life as easily as it was taken.
As Universal Sovereign, he can determine that without consultation with anyone.

If humans had stayed on the right path instead of wanting to create one for themselves, the reasons for using weapons of any sort for any reason, would never have existed.

I believe that God has immense power at his disposal but that it was never his intention to use it destructively. The defection of humans and angels has forced him to use his power negatively at times. I don't blame him. It was always deserved IMO.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, but the one thing we humans don't have is the right to indiscriminately take human life. The Creator can give it, and he can take it away at his own discretion, for his own reasons, having the ability to restore life as easily as it was taken.
As Universal Sovereign, he can determine that without consultation with anyone.

If humans had stayed on the right path instead of wanting to create one for themselves, the reasons for using weapons of any sort for any reason, would never have existed.

I believe that God has immense power at his disposal but that it was never his intention to use it destructively. The defection of humans and angels has forced him to use his power negatively at times. I don't blame him. It was always deserved IMO.

I don't blame him either, in truth. After all, he was made in our image, and as a race we're violent little buggers.

 

[Deeje]

I don't blame him either, in truth. After all, he was made in our image, and as a race we're violent little buggers.

Being made in God's image means that we display his characteristics and qualities. Nature teaches us that opposites exist for everything.....opposite emotions exist too. It is interesting to contemplate the things that elicit those emotions, both positive and negative. Eliminate the causes for negative emotions (anger, jealousy, injustice etc. usually because of someone misusing their free will) then positive emotions would dominate.

Keeping "the knowledge of good and evil" to himself at the beginning of human existence, meant that God would determine what was good and what was bad. Why was that a good idea with intelligent creatures, endowed with free will and made in God's image? It would mean that no conflict would surface because God would be the arbiter of what was good and what wasn't. When humans decided that they wanted to become the arbiter of their own conduct, God stepped away and allowed them to see first hand how that would work for them. Life lessons are the best teachers as we all know.

What we have seen in human history is that humans are lousy arbiters of their own conduct. Opposers each claim to be right and before you know it, bad becomes good and good becomes bad in their minds. Many hide their evil deeds behind their religion. Justification replaces reality. Everything becomes distorted...evil dominates.

Beyond a shadow of doubt, humans have demonstrated that they cannot rule themselves successfully without God's guidance. When they stepped away...so did he. We are reaping what we have sown, and everything the Bible said would happen....has happened. This is why I have faith that, what God initiated at the beginning will be reintroduced at the end...lessons learned, and places earned in the paradise to come. By our own conduct and choices, we determine our own destiny.

That is how I see things.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Being made in God's image means that we display his characteristics and qualities. Nature teaches us that opposites exist for everything.....opposite emotions exist too. It is interesting to contemplate the things that elicit those emotions, both positive and negative. Eliminate the causes for negative emotions (anger, jealousy, injustice etc. usually because of someone misusing their free will) then positive emotions would dominate.

Keeping "the knowledge of good and evil" to himself at the beginning of human existence, meant that God would determine what was good and what was bad. Why was that a good idea with intelligent creatures, endowed with free will and made in God's image? It would mean that no conflict would surface because God would be the arbiter of what was good and what wasn't. When humans decided that they wanted to become the arbiter of their own conduct, God stepped away and allowed them to see first hand how that would work for them. Life lessons are the best teachers as we all know.

What we have seen in human history is that humans are lousy arbiters of their own conduct. Opposers each claim to be right and before you know it, bad becomes good and good becomes bad in their minds. Many hide their evil deeds behind their religion. Justification replaces reality. Everything becomes distorted...evil dominates.

Beyond a shadow of doubt, humans have demonstrated that they cannot rule themselves successfully without God's guidance. When they stepped away...so did he. We are reaping what we have sown, and everything the Bible said would happen....has happened. This is why I have faith that, what God initiated at the beginning will be reintroduced at the end...lessons learned, and places earned in the paradise to come. By our own conduct and choices, we determine our own destiny.

That is how I see things.

You know I was just stirring you with the whole 'Good was made in our image' thing, right?

Couldn't help myself.