God's Father

[Remté]

I already gave evidence with regards to Abraham. The Prophets of God are perfect and sinless as well as infallible and all knowing.

No.

What admitted mistakes?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No.

What admitted mistakes?

I’m not sure what you’re saying. Can you please explain a bit more thanks.

 

[Remté]

I’m not sure what you’re saying. Can you please explain a bit more thanks.

The Prophets of God are not perfect, sinless, infallible or all knowing.

 

[stvdv]

Here’s a passage from the Most Holy Book where Baha’u’llah clearly refers to Himself. In the first He is referring to His being in Prison so He’s speaking as Baha’u’llah the Manifestation. But whatever you go with His main aim was to unite people and bring peace.
132 O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names, Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison: “Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.” (Baha’u’llah Most Holy Book)

Thanks for the verse from "the Most Holy Book". I googled and found the Book; good to have a look at the context.

Verse 130 talks about "the deceased" and how to handle them. Verse 131 tells clearly that GOD has removed the restrictions on travel imposed in the Bayan. So it was not Bahaullah who removed the restrictions. And I also like the addition "God, verily, is the Unconstrained ... does as He (God) pleases .. ordains what He (God) wills. This is all clearly about God "pulling the strings and being Omniscient"

Verse 132 seems to be a very abrupt change into another subject; the deceased I don't see here anymore. Feels like some text in between (131 and 132) is missing. Although, now He says "Fear God, and be not of those who are shut out as by a veil". So it might be that when He was talking about the deceased he meant the people who are alive, but "dead" to "Believe in God" so to speak (that was my initial feeling reading it first time). If that is what He meant, then the verses 130/131/132 feel more connected and it seems more to fit IMO.

So now verse 132: first line seems to me about God, it's not Bahaullah when describing "Him Who is the Lord of Names" IMO
O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names,
The next line: If the first line is about God, then "Who" in the next line also refers to God IMO. So God proclaims to us "from His habitation....."
Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison
The next line: What is it what God proclaims about Himself (similar proclamation as I read in the Bible/Koran)
“Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.”
So the above line is not about Bahaullah being Omniscient IMO. It is about God being Omniscient IMHO

In this way it totally makes sense to me. More so, because I always got the feeling that Bahaullah was a very humble man who praised God etc.

130 The Lord hath decreed, moreover, that the deceased should be enfolded in five sheets of silk or cotton. For those whose means are limited a single sheet of either fabric will suffice. Thus hath it been ordained by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. It is forbidden you to transport the body of the deceased a greater distance than one hour’s journey from the city; rather should it be interred, with radiance and serenity, in a nearby place.

131 God hath removed the restrictions on travel that had been imposed in the Bayán. He, verily, is the Unconstrained; He doeth as He pleaseth and ordaineth whatsoever He willeth.

132 O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names, Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison: “Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.” In truth, there is no God but Him, the Omnipotent Ruler of the worlds. Were it His Will, He would, through but a single word proceeding from His presence, lay hold on all mankind. Beware lest ye hesitate in your acceptance of this Cause—a Cause before which the Concourse on high and the dwellers of the Cities of Names have bowed down. Fear God, and be not of those who are shut out as by a veil. Burn ye away the veils with the fire of My love, and dispel ye the mists of vain imaginings by the power of this Name through which We have subdued the entire creation.
(The Kitáb-i-Aqdas)
www.bahai.org/r/906848323

 

[stvdv]

That’s incredible! We must be on the same page or reading from a similar Book!
Here’s what Baha’u’llah says about mirrors...
We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being..(Baha’u’llah)

This Bahaullah quote is like Advaita (if I understand it correctly).

The Enlightened Ones are pure mirrors and God shines thought them already. All the other humans (all else besides them) are to be regarded as mirrors "capable of reflecting" the glory of these Manifestations. But as I see it they are also capable of reflecting God, but only when they are Enlightened (but the path is narrow as the Bible says ... not many are enlightened).

So for pure Prophets "divinity is patent" whereas for others "divinity is latent". Through Divine association latent becomes patent (all Divine Grace IMO)

 

[stvdv]

The Prophets of God are not perfect, sinless, infallible or all knowing.

In your opinion, is the above true for all Prophets of God ... Moses (and others from Old Testament), Jesus (from Bible, you consider Him also a Prophet?), Muhammed (from Koran). Can it be that a human who is not perfect nor without sin, by the Grace of God becomes perfect the moment he becomes a Prophet (most Prophets are not Prophet by Birth I think). Or do you think that even while being a Prophet they commit sin and suffer this.

I know from Bhagavad Gita that when you offer every thought, word, deed to God, at least you are karma free (sins will not haunt you later on)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thanks for the verse from "the Most Holy Book". I googled and found the Book; good to have a look at the context.

Verse 130 talks about "the deceased" and how to handle them. Verse 131 tells clearly that GOD has removed the restrictions on travel imposed in the Bayan. So it was not Bahaullah who removed the restrictions. And I also like the addition "God, verily, is the Unconstrained ... does as He (God) pleases .. ordains what He (God) wills. This is all clearly about God "pulling the strings and being Omniscient"

Verse 132 seems to be a very abrupt change into another subject; the deceased I don't see here anymore. Feels like some text in between (131 and 132) is missing. Although, now He says "Fear God, and be not of those who are shut out as by a veil". So it might be that when He was talking about the deceased he meant the people who are alive, but "dead" to "Believe in God" so to speak (that was my initial feeling reading it first time). If that is what He meant, then the verses 130/131/132 feel more connected and it seems more to fit IMO.

So now verse 132: first line seems to me about God, it's not Bahaullah when describing "Him Who is the Lord of Names" IMO
O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names,
The next line: If the first line is about God, then "Who" in the next line also refers to God IMO. So God proclaims to us "from His habitation....."
Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison
The next line: What is it what God proclaims about Himself (similar proclamation as I read in the Bible/Koran)
“Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.”
So the above line is not about Bahaullah being Omniscient IMO. It is about God being Omniscient IMHO

In this way it totally makes sense to me. More so, because I always got the feeling that Bahaullah was a very humble man who praised God etc.

He further explains His relationship with God like I think you’ve pointed out with much insight. He is a Mirror not God in Essence.

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” (Baha’u’llah- Gleanings)

Certain ones among you,” He declared, “have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.’ By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs… My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will…. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors….” (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Remté]

In your opinion, is the above true for all Prophets of God ... Moses (and others from Old Testament), Jesus (from Bible, you consider Him also a Prophet?), Muhammed (from Koran). Can it be that a human who is not perfect nor without sin, by the Grace of God becomes perfect the moment he becomes a Prophet (most Prophets are not Prophet by Birth I think). Or do you think that even while being a Prophet they commit sin and suffer this.

I know from Bhagavad Gita that when you offer every thought, word, deed to God, at least you are karma free (sins will not haunt you later on)

All Prophets are equal so yes. I cannot know whether a prophet sinned after becoming a prophet, but I don't suppose there is a reason to suppose they couldn't have.

 

[stvdv]

He further explains His relationship with God like I think you’ve pointed out with much insight. He is a Mirror not God in Essence.

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” (Baha’u’llah- Gleanings)

Certain ones among you,” He declared, “have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.’ By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs… My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will…. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors….” (Baha’u’llah)

Fantastic verses. You got me a bit confused yesterday, about how I saw Bahaullah, but these verses put everything right; at least right how I see it.

"Verily I am God". The word "verily" meaning in essence, meaning "our true reality is this Divine Spark which is in all of us"; as I see it. So if an "enlightened" being says that, that's okay IMO. When someone would imply to be Omniscient/Omnipresent on its own, that goes 1 step too far for me.

I have the Book of certainty (Kitáb-i-Íqán) at home, and sofar I did not find 1 line that got me confused (or going against what I learned from my Master), hence I hold Bahaullah in high esteem. He is very humble in this Book (I only read ca. 70 pages, trying to see if I see `mistakes` as compared to what I have learned and believe. But I could not find 1 `mistake` in those 70 pages, hence I accepted Him as a true Prophet).

 

[loverofhumanity]

Fantastic verses. You got me a bit confused yesterday, about how I saw Bahaullah, but these verses put everything right; at least right how I see it.

"Verily I am God". The word "verily" meaning in essence, meaning "our true reality is this Divine Spark which is in all of us"; as I see it. So if an "enlightened" being says that, that's okay IMO. When someone would imply to be Omniscient/Omnipresent on its own goes 1 step too far for me.

I have the Book of certainty (Kitáb-i-Íqán) at home, and sofar I did not find 1 line that got me confused (or going against what I learned from my Master), hence I hold Bahaullah in high esteem. He is very humble in this Book (I only read ca. 70 pages, trying to see if I see `mistakes` as compared to what I have learned and believe. But I could not find 1 `mistake` in those 70 pages, hence I accepted Him as a true Prophet).

Sorry for confusing you but I guess I’m just a dusty little mirror that doesn’t reflect very well yet! Lol.

 

[stvdv]

Sorry for confusing you but I guess I’m just a dusty little mirror that doesn’t reflect very well yet! Lol.

Confusing each other a little is good. That sharpens the intellect, and is a good incentive to keep using our brains. And it made me read 3 pages of the Book, and made me feel happy reading it, realizing even at that moment that spiritual life/wisdom is all that really matters to me.

 

[1213]

... After all, we know through scripture that the god of Abraham isn't perfect (he's made admitted mistakes) so maybe there's a truly perfect super-god.

I know this is wild speculation, but I see nothing in any of the theistic religions that prohibits it.

What do you think?

I think God has not made mistakes. I think God is perfect.

 

[Skwim]

I think God has not made mistakes. I think God is perfect.

Genesis 6:6
6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

1 Samuel 15:11
11 I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and ohas not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.
​

One doesn't regret his successes. He regrets his mistakes.

"Mistake
noun
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
a misunderstanding or misconception."​

.

 

[MonkeyFire]

God can only have a father if the universe has always existed.

 

[ecco]

Why couldn't god have come from some higher being?

Specifically regarding the Christian Bible version of Genesis:

Things got messed up pretty fast. A&E were disobedient. One of God's first two grandchildren murdered the other. Incest, by necessity, was rampant. Things got so bad that God tried to start over after killing nearly all of His Creation.

How to explain it in the context of this thread?

In the Grand Scheme of Things, there is a GOD and HIS HELPMEET. From time to time they have offspring (Gods). GOD starts teaching the Young (equivalent to a six-year-old human) Gods in the ways of THE EVERYTHING, like we begin to teach our kids about the ways of The World. After a while, GOD tells the Young God that it is time for Him to create a universe.

It's quite clear that our universe was created, and is maintained by, a petulant seven-year-old Child-God.

 

[Deeje]

It's quite clear that our universe was created, and is maintained by, a petulant seven-year-old Child-God.

And it's posts like this that demonstrate why people remain atheists.

All sons have fathers.....they are the product of their father's procreative ability.

According to the Bible, God has many sons who were all created before the universe (and us) existed. The Father in this case however, is uncreated, an infinite being, beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. Scientists denying his existence, I am sure he finds amusing. Like a baby, 2 minutes old, denying that they had a father because they hadn't met him yet....but they had heard his voice in the womb all their lives up to that time.

Now, I could add an infinite number of zeros after the "7" which would put this firstborn son's education in a far superior position to any intelligent human who has ever lived. He was educated by the greatest teacher in existence. He has more wisdom and experience than all the genius humans who have ever graced history.

I believe that we will all stand before this person that you don't believe in, but that is because I am a believer in an Intelligent Creator who is responsible for your existence and mine.

What we individually believe has no bearing on reality. I hope you understand that.

It is never a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you...or to insult the one who gave you life and free will to choose your own future.

If you are happy with what you have chosen and are prepared for an end to your existence anyway....then you will not be disappointed...will you? How is God's existence a threat to anyone?

 

[ecco]

How is God's existence a threat to anyone?

Non-entities have no existence, therefore they are not a threat.
Beliefs in non-entities are a threat for many reasons.

 

[1213]

Genesis 6:6
6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

1 Samuel 15:11
11 I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and ohas not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.
​

One doesn't regret his successes. He regrets his mistakes.

"Mistake
noun
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
a misunderstanding or misconception."​

.

The word “regret” can be translated to mean “to be sorry”. It is possible to be sorry about something without thinking it was mistake.

 

[Skwim]

The word “regret” can be translated to mean “to be sorry”. It is possible to be sorry about something without thinking it was mistake.

Not "about" but "for." Sorry for what you did?

I fail to see the significant difference.

"Mistake
noun
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
a misunderstanding or misconception."

.​

 

[1213]

Not "about" but "for." Sorry for what you did?

I fail to see the significant difference.

"Mistake
noun
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
a misunderstanding or misconception."

.​

I think the important thing is to notice, Bible doesn’t say God made mistake. That is your interpretation. I think it is wrong and I think Bible should be understood so that God was sorry. But obviously you have right to keep your wrong opinion.