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Featured God's Father

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In another thread I posted the quite contradictory lineages of Joseph as presented in the books of Matthew and Luke. At the end I tacked on Mary and her relationship with god as the mother and father of Jesus. Because next to nothing is known about Mary's lineage I designated it with a question mark, I also did the same to god; linking his lineage to a question mark.

    This got me thinking. Why couldn't god have come from some higher being? The god of Abraham, the god of our particular universe, being the "offspring" of a higher god(s), perhaps the god of all, or maybe several, universes or higher plains. Maybe the god of Abraham is answerable to the god of all gods, or whatever. After all, we know through scripture that the god of Abraham isn't perfect (he's made admitted mistakes) so maybe there's a truly perfect super-god.

    I know this is wild speculation, but I see nothing in any of the theistic religions that prohibits it.

    What do you think?

     
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  2. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

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    Jewish women neither transfer nor carry either family or tribal lineage, She is born the daughter of her father and becomes the wife of her husband.

    Jewish lineage, familial and tribal, is transferred exclusively from father to son. Jewish women do not belong to any tribe, nor is her father included in any of her sons' histories.

    If you have a Gentile father and a Jewish Mother, you are a Jew, but have no tribe or family lineage - aka bnei Av'raham.

    If you have a Jewish father and a gentile mother, who is not a legal convert: you are a gentile.

    The woman passes on Jewishness, the father passes on everything else.
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You don't? What about Yahweh being called "the Almighty" in the Bible? Psalms 80:19; Psalms 91:1-2.

    That sorta precludes anyone else as higher, wouldn't you think?
     
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  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    All the Prophets and Messengers speak of only one God.

    The Prophets of God do not sin....

    Abraham did not lie in reality. In speaking of Sarah as His sister He spoke absolutely truthfully as she was in reality His spiritual sister also.

    In Christianity, Jesus describes the bond that exists between people who are mutually devoted to obeying God this way:

    “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:50)
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    For bees the Queen bee is GOD
    For humans the Super Human is GOD

    That does not mean that GOD is human
    So to me "Father" is used because we can relate to that
    Not to be taken literally
     
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  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I like your title; it's thought-provoking. At least it was for me.... I'm provoked!
     
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So it appears. Some bibles affirm it, some don't.

    Whoa . . . Now that's a new one on me. Got any evidence?


    I wouldn't think so.

    .
     
    #7 Skwim, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Interesting. Thanks for the info.

    All of which, of course, means that lacking any genealogy connecting Mary with king David Jesus does not qualify as the promised messiah.

    .
    .
     
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, for waking me up:)
     
  10. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I already gave evidence with regards to Abraham. The Prophets of God are perfect and sinless as well as infallible and all knowing.

    God rebuked Moses too but He was in fact rebuking the Jews through Moses. There are many instances where it appears as you say but in reality it is not so and any such situation has another explanation. Even some of the stories in the Bible like Adam and Eve are allegorical and symbolic to teach an important lesson not that the Prophets, God forbid ever turned against God.
     
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Here you make quite some statement.

    You say that the Prophets of God are:
    1) Perfect: I doubt that, anyway "perfect" is relative
    2) Sinless: I doubt that, anyway "sin" is human invention
    3) Infallible: I doubt that, it is in human nature to "err"
    4) All knowing: That is a big NO (No human is all knowing)

    All knowing = Omniscient = Knowing the past, the present, the future of all humans, all animals, all plants. Maybe it's easy to know all about the earth, because the earth is relatively small. But to know all of our milkyway or even the other ones, or the ones not yet in existance is not something all the Prophets of God know. I am 100% sure about that. Especially after reading the Koran, I am even more sure about that. I even think that Muslims will argue that Muhammed is not all knowing (but I am not sure about that).

    And I can even easily proof that the Prophets of God are not all knowing (that's even simple, anyone can easily proof that)
     
  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    This is our understanding about the Prophets of God.....

    God we believe is Perfect, sinless, all knowing and infallible and He says the Prophets’ knowledge is identical with His own Self.

    He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. (Baha’u’llah)

    They did not reveal to us all They knew.

    These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. (Baha’u’llah)

    The Prophets souls were not conceived in this world but are pre existent.

    The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.(Shoghi Effendi)
     
    #12 loverofhumanity, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    For example if you take Moses. In the Bible it is written that Moses went in a tent to meditate, and in meditation God revealed His message.
    If Moses were omniscient then Moses would not need to meditate, and God would not need to tell Moses. This proves that Moses is not omniscient.

    But if a Prophet is very pure (in His Heart) then of course the message that he receives from God will be well conveyed (be pure). Whereas if other people (who are less pure) receive a message they might misinterpret the message

    Omniscience is 1 of the 16 attributes of some Avatars. A prophet is not an Avatar. Omniscience is not like a siddhi that can be acquired by intense sadhana.

    So from both these viewpoints (Scriptures declaring only some Avatars have Omniscience at their disposel + Prophet receives message from the Divine) it is clear to me that a Prophet is not Omniscient. Are you sure that Bahaullah Himself has declared that He is Omniscient? Or are it the followers who claim this. Can you give me the verse where Bahaullah Himself (not His son) declares that He is Omniscient. I can not believe Bahaullah would have ever said this. And I mean a clear verse, not one that needs to be interpreted to mean this; it should contain the word Omniscient.
     
  14. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I think its plausible.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    What I’m saying is this. None of the Prophets are God in essence but like pure mirrors which reflect Him.

    God is omniscient and He can bestow that omniscience upon whomsoever He wishes as He is God.

    Baha’u’llah states that God bestowed omniscience upon Him in this Tablet to the Shah of Persia. From that moment onwards He had conferred omniscience given Him by God

    O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All- Knowing. (Baha’u’llah)

    Again here Baha’u’llah refers to Himself as All Knowing.

    The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy.
     
  16. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    If god exists what created it? Some Christians state something cannot come from nothing, but yet believe god was always there.:rolleyes:
     
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the quotes. With all respect to Bahaullah of course, but I remember Bahaullah advices us to not believe blind, so I scrutinized all words.

    As far as I know Omniscience is one of the few things that will not be granted to a human. Also my Master says that Omniscience can't be obtained while alive. this makes more sense to me, so I agree to disagree on this one. When we are Omniscient ourselves then we know for sure the answer.

    I am glad to read that Baha'ullah writes "This thing is not from Me". And He even continues "but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing"
    Clearly to me there is "ONE" Who is Almighthy and All-Knowing.

    If Bahaullah were also All-Knowing there would be 2. So, like in the Bible and Koran, there are some verses that are not very clear, or maybe even some words added that were not there. He did not declare this in English, so I would like to know the original language with word by word translation. I do understand that followers like Bahaullah to be Omniscient.

    And when you take the verse correctly then it does not imply Omniscience. Because Bahaullah says (according to this verse you gave in English which I doubt to be accurate) "taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been". This clearly means the past, not the present nor the future. So for sure it's not Omniscience. Not that I belittle this, it is huge to be taught the knowledge of all that hath been. Teachers have taught me also many things, sadly I forgot quite a bit. Bahaullah does not say that He was taught and remembered all. When being Omniscient you don't forget, but then there is also no "teaching". Because there is only Omniscience. Every second there is new DATA. When you get DATA by teaching you will miss out on the new DATA. Omniscience can therefore not be taught in my opinion.

    Once God came to me and taught me a scripture. But afterwards I forgot quite a few details. But the good part is that afterwards I was able to read and understand the scripture way better than before (before I only could read first ca. 50 pages (tried for 5 years, was just to hard for me), afterwards I read in ca. 4 weeks the remaining ca. 700 pages. So I know it is possible that God can teach you in a second so much. And in Bahaullah's case God obviously told Bahaullah much more than God told me, but the verse to me is clearly not meaning Bahaullah was Omniscient, because it clearly states only the past (which again is huge).

    To me the above verse points to God, being the "All-Knowing Physician". To be convincing you should give me the context around this text. From this line alone it is not clear.
     
  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your respectful reply. You have made a lot of very good points.

    Here’s a passage from the Most Holy Book where Baha’u’llah clearly refers to Himself. In the first He is referring to His being in Prison so He’s speaking as Baha’u’llah the Manifestation. But whatever you go with His main aim was to unite people and bring peace.

    132 O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names, Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison: “Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.” (Baha’u’llah Most Holy Book)

    43 Lament not in your hours of trial, neither rejoice therein; seek ye the Middle Way which is the remembrance of Me in your afflictions and reflection over that which may befall you in future. Thus informeth you He Who is the Omniscient,
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    How My Master explained it is as follows: "You are all sparks of the Divine, so in essence you are God". But according to my Master "God" as people define "God" is not true. Consciousness comes closer to God in this context.

    but like pure mirrors which reflect Him
    If a Prophet is a pure mirror that reflects Him, that would mean that everything around the Prophet is God and reflected in the Prophet. Advaita taught me that only Consciousness exists, so in that sense everything around the Prophet is Consciousness (or God). But I think you mean to say:
    "Prophets are pure mirrors reflecting the bad habits people have when meeting the pure prophet"
    "God shines through the Prophet from within".
     
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  20. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    That’s incredible! We must be on the same page or reading from a similar Book!

    Here’s what Baha’u’llah says about mirrors...

    We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being..(Baha’u’llah)
     
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