Godless is lack of Virtues.

[Sheldon]

This OP has been good for me. It shows me I have a lot to learn.

It is interesting to note, even when one tries to clarify, clear up the misunderstood aspect of the OP, that people still hung on to the aspect that they saw was a conflict, so that is interesting in its own self.

Regards Tony

Or you could focus on the title you chose, "Godless is lack of virtues", that is not hard to misinterpret.

Did you ever think to step back and wonder critically, and without any a priori bias, am I believing something that might not be true?

The world or universe might seem a more a cruel and barbaric place (subjectively), but so what, would you rather believe a comforting lie, or know an unpleasant truth?

For me it's the second every time

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Only by the practice of virtue, can people become virtuous. This principle was asserted, continents apart, by both Aristotle and Confucius, millennia ago.

Correct and that is what the OP offers, names and titles do not define us, but practice of virtues will.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And many who follow no source are equally good.

Maybe even better in some, or even many cases.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or you could focus on the title you chose, "Godless is lack of virtues", that is not hard to misinterpret.

Did you ever think to step back and wonder critically, and without any a priori bias, am I believing something that might not be true?

The world or universe might seem a more a cruel and barbaric place (subjectively), but so what, would you rather believe a comforting lie, or know an unpleasant truth?

For me it's the second every time

How can we clear up our understandings of each other's views without discussing where they may differ?

So now you can consider when I talk of a Godliness, Light filled person, it also includes Athiests, that also practice what I see are the meanings of those words, the practice of Virtues.

No matter how good we do with virtues, I see we still have a lack of light, a tendency to vices.

Regards Tony

 

[MonkeyFire]

War and hate are forever even if immorality dies.

 

[CG Didymus]

It appears even people of one's own Faith. That's OK, but I see that misses the point we are all one people on one planet.

Abdul'baha offered put a topic forward and discuss, if it becomes a cause for dissension, then to stop and leave it alone.

I was happy to discuss, I am happy to leave it alone. There is so much that an be offered on this topic.

In the end the OP is seen in one's own light. Some saw the good internet, yet they were founded in the knowledge of that intent.

This is an extract from Abdul'baha, the type of verse this OP was based upon, I have cut down the quote to the relevant part in regards to this OP,

"....... for no matter to what religion a man belongs, even though he be an atheist or materialist, nevertheless, God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light......"

Thus the light is the virtues and to have virtues is godliness, no matter who we are and how we see those virtues.

The virtues define us.

I am most likely going spend a lot less time here. All the best CG.

Regards Tony

An athiest with a virtue, sheds more light of that virtue and is thus more godly that a believer without that virtue.

It was sad for me, that those that understood the Metephor, analogy , similar did not spend more time explaining it, thab to offer how wrong I had presented it.

Has any Baha'i put out an OP that didn't cause people to argue against it? And I don't think any Baha'i has been able to avoid being controversial with their statements and quotes. But take heart, it could be that God is teaching you how to persevere... along with teaching you some humility and getting you to forgive others. See, your poor wording of the OP has given you the chance to grow spiritually. And, in case you didn't notice, it's caused me to be nice to you for a change... instead of piling on with the criticism.

 

[Truthseeker]

his OP has been good for me. It shows me I have a lot to learn.

You certainly look at the bright side of things. I'll give you that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has any Baha'i put out an OP that didn't cause people to argue against it? And I don't think any Baha'i has been able to avoid being controversial with their statements and quotes. But take heart, it could be that God is teaching you how to persevere... along with teaching you some humility and getting you to forgive others. See, your poor wording of the OP has given you the chance to grow spiritually. And, in case you didn't notice, it's caused me to be nice to you for a change... instead of piling on with the criticism.

Being nice, that is a real bonus for God both of us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You certainly look at the bright side of things. I'll give you that.

One must learn from what has gone before.

Who would have thought a few words could have such a reaction?

It may indicate how unpopular concepts about God, have become.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

War and hate are forever even if immorality dies.

I read this quote and thought it would be reflected by your comment.

"Verily, it is better a thousand times for a man to die than to continue living without virtue.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 112

So without virtues, we are better off not being here, the whole purpose of life for me is found in the following quote, and if this could be our guide, then it is possible for war and hate to diminish, but I agree, a degree of war and hate will always remain, it may be that it is wider then this earth though.

"You belong to the world of purity, and are not content to live the life of the animal, spending your days in eating, drinking, and sleeping. You are indeed men! Your thoughts and ambitions are set to acquire human perfection. You live to do good and to bring happiness to others. Your greatest longing is to comfort those who mourn, to strengthen the weak, and to be the cause of hope to the despairing soul. Day and night your thoughts are turned to the Kingdom, and your hearts are full of the Love of God. Thus you know neither opposition, dislike, nor hatred, for every living creature is dear to you and the good of each is sought. These are perfect human sentiments and virtues. If a man has none of these, he had better cease to exist. If a lamp has ceased to give light, it had better be destroyed. If a tree bear no fruit, it had better be cut down, for it only cumbereth the ground." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 112

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If a tree bear no fruit, it had better be cut down, for it only cumbereth the ground.

I chopped down two redwoods and an oak tree today. They were really encumbering things. Or am I being too literal?

But, speaking of being too literal, who lives like this? Your ambitions and thoughts are to acquire human perfection? Bringing happiness and comfort to others? Day and night only thinking about God? No hatred for any living creature? Abdul Baha' just set up all Baha'is to be failures. Who's going to live up to this? And just like some people point a finger at Christians and call them hypocrites, the same thing is going to happen with Baha'is. You, and other Baha'is, are going to talk about "perfection" but not one Baha'i will probably ever be perfect.

So, I wouldn't worry about where Atheists are going to go to find out how to be virtuous, I'd worry about how to get more Baha'is to be virtuous people. Things like being humble and showing love and respect for others. I know there is a NT quote about Christians should be the light of the world, I'm sure there's a Baha'i quote that says the same thing. Right now, the "light" in some of the Baha'i lamps looks pretty dim.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I chopped down two redwoods and an oak tree today. They were really encumbering things. Or am I being too literal?

But, speaking of being too literal, who lives like this? Your ambitions and thoughts are to acquire human perfection? Bringing happiness and comfort to others? Day and night only thinking about God? No hatred for any living creature? Abdul Baha' just set up all Baha'is to be failures. Who's going to live up to this? And just like some people point a finger at Christians and call them hypocrites, the same thing is going to happen with Baha'is. You, and other Baha'is, are going to talk about "perfection" but not one Baha'i will probably ever be perfect.

So, I wouldn't worry about where Atheists are going to go to find out how to be virtuous, I'd worry about how to get more Baha'is to be virtuous people. Things like being humble and showing love and respect for others. I know there is a NT quote about Christians should be the light of the world, I'm sure there's a Baha'i quote that says the same thing. Right now, the "light" in some of the Baha'i lamps looks pretty dim.

I find the best quotes to remember when we look at other attempts of virtue, that are not our own, to me is this one.

Matthew 7:3-5
New International Version
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Baha'u'llah confirmed that via this Hidden Word.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

So....It is indeed a journey CG, one that is difficult but full of joy and self exploration.

Would not change that journey for the world, there was a time when other goals were more of a priority, and they became my greatest regrets.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your ambitions and thoughts are to acquire human perfection? Bringing happiness and comfort to others? Day and night only thinking about God? No hatred for any living creature?

That is my goal, work in progress, but in 38 years, I have changed a great deal.

If we wake at night and try to offer our first thought as Ya Baha'ul Abha, every morning in prayer the first mention can be Ya Baha'ul Abha,
every moment of the day when our mind is free from work or distraction, one can call to mind Ya Baha'ul Abha, every conversation with faith can have a thanks of Ya Baha'ul Abha.

My view of hate has changed, one can still hate the actions, strong word, but it is about finding justice. The person is no longer hated, we can look for the light in all people and all people can change, it is always a choice until our last breath.

That is also a warning to believers, so they can remain humble.

"....He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

In response to your letter received on 6 March seeking from the Universal House of Justice a definition of "ungodliness", we have been directed to quote the following passage found on page 200 of "Dawn of a New Day", a compilation of letters written on behalf of the beloved Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of India:

In the passage "eschew all fellowship with the ungodly", Bahá'u'lláh means that we should shun the company of those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. The word "ungodly" is a reference to such perverse people.

With reference to Shoghi Effendi's clarification quoted above, it may also be helpful to note that dictionary definitions of "wayward" include "childishly self-willed or perverse, capricious" and "unaccountable"; and the definition of "perverse" includes "stubbornly departing from what is reasonable", "persistent in error", "perverted" and "wicked".

So ungodly means those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. I have seen some nonbelievers who are wayward but I have also seen some believers who are wayward, so I don't think the latter have a free pass just because they believe in God. I think that God judges us by our deeds more than by our beliefs.

5: O SON OF DUST! Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 23-24

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156, 257

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that God judges us by our deeds more than by our beliefs, although this is a complex subject.

That is the main purpose for this OP, as the complexity goes beyond what we have chosen to label ourselves as.

This Bible verse is also a thought behind this OP,

Matthew 7:21-23
New King James Version
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

As we all have the capacity of that image, even if we have chosen to not attribute that capacity to God, then we one and all can be virtuous, which is a major part of being lawful.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

So ungodly means those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. I have seen some nonbelievers who are wayward but I have also seen some believers who are wayward, so I don't think the latter have a free pass just because they believe in God. I think that God judges us by our deeds more than by our beliefs.

5: O SON OF DUST! Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 23-24

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156, 257

danieldemol quoted this passage that I quoted and thinks that Shoghi Effendi is covering up for Baha'u'llah, who of course he thinks is just human and is influenced by His time and thinks all humans that are atheists are godless. There's no answer for that really for someone who doesn't believe in Baha'u'llah or Prophets at all, or that Shoghi Effendi is honest and a chosen interpreter.

We can't know here on this plane of existence how God judges people for not believing in God, which in my fallible opinion means not believing in Manifestations of God. We don't know how He weighs actions and belief. I just thought of this quote:

The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 169)

I think this means faith and actions are part of what our spiritual state is in the next world. I also think faith means faith in Baha'u'llah mainly, not belief in God. I doubt really this applies only to the next world, though here He is talking about our life after death.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is my goal, work in progress, but in 38 years, I have changed a great deal.

If we wake at night and try to offer our first thought as Ya Baha'ul Abha, every morning in prayer the first mention can be Ya Baha'ul Abha,
every moment of the day when our mind is free from work or distraction, one can call to mind Ya Baha'ul Abha, every conversation with faith can have a thanks of Ya Baha'ul Abha.

My view of hate has changed, one can still hate the actions, strong word, but it is about finding justice. The person is no longer hated, we can look for the light in all people and all people can change, it is always a choice until our last breath.

That is also a warning to believers, so they can remain humble.

"....He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

Regards Tony

Well, when we talk about unity, I say that probably most every religion has something similar to, Ya Baha'ul Abha. They all believe in love and peace and all that, but they also have very different beliefs about God and who are his prophets and what are his laws. Some Baha'is make it very clear that they believe those other religions are wrong... And that a "true seeker" would recognize the truth of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. That is telling all those good people in those other religions that they aren't "true seekers"? That's the kind of talk that gets some people turned off by the Baha'i Faith. It doesn't seem to really accept and respect people in their diversity. It expects them to see the "light" and accept that Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna, of Buddha, of Jesus and all the rest.

I think it causes divisions where there doesn't have to be. In fact, I think that Atheists, because of their rejection of superstitious beliefs, have more in common with Baha'is, than most of the other religions. But it's Baha'is that are just as guilty of being hard-headed and stubborn about their beliefs as anyone else. Where's the virtue in that? How's that going to lead to unity. Maybe Baha'is don't think they're doing it, but they come off as being superior... Because they have "superior" knowledge that no one else has. And everybody should listen to them. Which means... forget the things they thought they knew and accept this new knowledge that has been brought by Baha'u'llah. And all that has caused is people to look for and find all sorts of reasons not to believe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, when we talk about unity, I say that probably most every religion has something similar to, Ya Baha'ul Abha. They all believe in love and peace and all that, but they also have very different beliefs about God and who are his prophets and what are his laws. Some Baha'is make it very clear that they believe those other religions are wrong... And that a "true seeker" would recognize the truth of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. That is telling all those good people in those other religions that they aren't "true seekers"? That's the kind of talk that gets some people turned off by the Baha'i Faith. It doesn't seem to really accept and respect people in their diversity. It expects them to see the "light" and accept that Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna, of Buddha, of Jesus and all the rest.

I think it causes divisions where there doesn't have to be. In fact, I think that Atheists, because of their rejection of superstitious beliefs, have more in common with Baha'is, than most of the other religions. But it's Baha'is that are just as guilty of being hard-headed and stubborn about their beliefs as anyone else. Where's the virtue in that? How's that going to lead to unity. Maybe Baha'is don't think they're doing it, but they come off as being superior... Because they have "superior" knowledge that no one else has. And everybody should listen to them. Which means... forget the things they thought they knew and accept this new knowledge that has been brought by Baha'u'llah. And all that has caused is people to look for and find all sorts of reasons not to believe.

Each person has a choice to react to the Messengers of God as they so choose CG.

I do not see that the Message of Baha’u’llah is any different in that regard.

Regards Tony