God is "the Regretful Gambler"?

[1213]

...Why would a god set up this elaborate game, with vague and uncertain rules, with thought crimes, and with infinite torture being the outcome for everyone who loses the game (which is almost everyone)? And the few people who win the game get "perfected" in heaven so they won't feel bad about the rest of their friends and family being tortured forever, and are then relegated to glorifying and praising this god for eternity. Oh, and this god knew in advance that all the losers would lose, but chose to create them anyway....

Interesting, so you think that if one doesn't get etenrl life, short life is worthless and means nothing?

I think the rules are not vague, and by what the Bible tells, there is no infinite torture. There is destruction of those who are not righteous and eternal life for those who are righteous.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[firedragon]

Salam

God could've not created anything and also he could've created things in a way that guarantees their guidance.

He looked at his creation and was happy that it was good, and really lucked out with the exalted best of the best.

But he took a gamble when trying Angels with Adam, it was expected all prostrate to Adam but not all did. Then took a gamble and let Iblis challenge his chosen Adam and humanity. Then when things unexpectedly fell apart, he took a further gamble in creating a fallen world.

The Torah has a verse that God regretted creating humans when Noah's people were drowned. We had in us now a culture, that would rebel against God and deny his signs.

Both Jinn and Humans, this was not odd or bad or evil or strange, it became the norm. Time and time again.

I use to find fault with that verse, but after reflecting, it seems it's true.

God wanted a perfect world. When Error handling world was created, it was to fix us and help us and guide us back, but the result is the opposite. And this is God's words in my view:

"...and if he wished he could've gave every soul it's guidance, but his word has come true (ie. promise to Iblis) that he will fill the hell with humans and Jinn all together (that disbelieve)"

It seems it's saying God could've created this world in a way that guarantees guidance, but the gambles were made, and his promise remains, and so there is no turning back now.

This is a sad world. And God expresses his grief in Surah Yaseen:

"Oh (intense) grief over my servants, there comes not them a Messenger except regarding him they would mock."

So why did he gamble? In my view, it's because the reward in freely choosing to worship God is just better. His relationship with us would be better. We would feel better about ourselves and each other and him.

It was unexpected that Iblis refuses. It was unexpected Adam the elite chosen one, doubts and wavers. It was unexpected humanity turns away from chosen Guides like Seth, Enoch, and Noah, and disobey God.

What has happened has happened.

There is still a way to fix things before the final non-Nabi Messenger comes, the Mahdi. And the return of Jesus and Elijah and Enoch and other chosen ones, we can prepare for them, bringing them back on good terms.

If they come back on bad terms, I fear the disgrace that will fall upon us will be great and cities destroyed will be majority (with very little believing).

Dont get offended brother. But I think you are anthropomorphising God.

 

[AlexanderG]

Interesting, so you think that if one doesn't get etenrl life, short life is worthless and means nothing?

I think the rules are not vague, and by what the Bible tells, there is no infinite torture. There is destruction of those who are not righteous and eternal life for those who are righteous.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

The vast majority of self-identifying Christians would say that you have a false, incorrect interpretation of the nature of hell. They read and interpret other verses that establish a completely different notion of hell. You realize this, right?

There are dozens of different mainstream interpretations of what hell is and what it entails. Likewise for the requirements that must be met for salvation, or what rules we should follow today, or the nature of god, or what kind of baptism is required if any, etc. There are over 40,000 distinct Christian denominations that disagree amongst themselves on every issue while claiming they are the one correct version. The fact that you confidently assert one particular interpretation that most other sincere, thoughtful Christians confidently assert is false is precisely what I mean by your god's game having "vague and uncertain rules."

You not only cannot point at anything in reality that independently corroborates the supernatural claims of the bible, but you have no reliable tools to show that your scriptural interpretation is more accurate than anyone else's, because it seems to come down to a matter of personality type and subjective preference of the individual Christian. You're just supporting my point. It's all a mess, and certainly should not be the basis for punishing anyone if they get it "wrong."

 

[1213]

The vast majority of self-identifying Christians would say that you have a false, incorrect interpretation of the nature of hell. They read and interpret other verses that establish a completely different notion of hell. ...

Is there any good reason to interpret direct words to mean something else than what was said? Why should anyone rather believe some modern interpreter than what Jesus?

 

[AlexanderG]

Is there any good reason to interpret direct words to mean something else than what was said? Why should anyone rather believe some modern interpreter than what Jesus?

Are you saying they interpret words to mean something else than what was said? Because again, that's exactly what they would say about your interpretation. Maybe you've just been living in a sheltered, insular community of like-minded believers, but as an outsider I see Christians doing this all the time, making claims that only their particular interpretation is true because X, Y, and Z, when that is literally the same argument every other Christian is making to justify their other contradictory interpretations. Like I said, you have no reliable tool to show you've guessed correctly. Anything you can say to justify it to yourself is exactly what all the other denominations say. It really is. You have no good way to know if you've got it right or not, if you're saved or not, and so you never know if you've done enough, and you have to keep coming back for more forgiveness, and this is a classic way that cults manipulate and control their followers. It's something we see humans do. It's the same methods but with different particulars each time.

This is one reason that Christianity seems entirely imaginary to me. The world is how it is, and we don't seem to be able to know why. So let's get on with our lives and do our best, without ruining it with gaslighting, shame, manipulative threats of torture, or promises magical rewards, all of which have no evidentiary support but coincidentally funnel money to people in power and persuade young women to be sexually compliant. Blech, it's so transparent.

 

[1213]

...but as an outsider I see Christians doing this all the time, making claims that only their particular interpretation is true because X, Y, and Z, when that is literally the same argument every other Christian is making to justify their other contradictory interpretations. Like I said, you have no reliable tool to show you've guessed correctly. Anything you can say to justify it to yourself is exactly what all the other denominations say. It really is. You have no good way to know if you've got it right or not,..

Yes, I know there are many different interpretations. And many times, it is possible only because people take few lines from the Bible and then form own religion around it. But, if everyone says that others interpretation is wrong, maybe they are all wrong? I recommend to read what the Bible tells and let it explain what it means. I think that is the best way. And if one doesn’t like the message in the Bible, then perhaps he should consider some other book, instead of trying to twist Bible to fit to his desires.

 

[AlexanderG]

Yes, I know there are many different interpretations. And many times, it is possible only because people take few lines from the Bible and then form own religion around it. But, if everyone says that others interpretation is wrong, maybe they are all wrong? I recommend to read what the Bible tells and let it explain what it means. I think that is the best way. And if one doesn’t like the message in the Bible, then perhaps he should consider some other book, instead of trying to twist Bible to fit to his desires.

Yes, this is my point. Basing your beliefs on the bible is a bad epistemology, because there is no way to provide any indication that your beliefs are true besides your personal intuition and preferences. I mean, if that's what helps you feel happy and gets you through the day, then go for it. Just recognize that you can't justify these beliefs to yourself or to other people, apart from the utility of how they make you feel better, because there is no other justification.

 

[1213]

...Basing your beliefs on the bible is a bad epistemology,

Sorry, I disagree with that. If person believes what the Bible tells, no one can show a real error in that. But when person replaces Bible teachings with own intepretations, then it is possible to find errors.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But he took a gamble when trying Angels with Adam, it was expected all prostrate to Adam but not all did.

Yeah, this screams human authorship because they would have the cajones to think angels should bow to some dirt apes.

 

[Link]

Dont get offended brother. But I think you are anthropomorphising God.

Salam this would be the view of most Muslims per my view of God. I understand brother, not offended.

 

[KWED]

God could've not created anything and also he could've created things in a way that guarantees their guidance.

Not really.
1. God has infallible knowledge of the future.
2. God has always had this knowledge.
3. Therefore god cannot do anything other than what he has always known he will do.

This raises a difficult paradox.
God cannot "decide" to do something because his infallible foreknowledge means that he has always known he is going to do it.
So, where did that knowledge come from?

 

[Link]

Not really.
1. God has infallible knowledge of the future.
2. God has always had this knowledge.
3. Therefore god cannot do anything other than what he has always known he will do.

This raises a difficult paradox.
God cannot "decide" to do something because his infallible foreknowledge means that he has always known he is going to do it.
So, where did that knowledge come from?

The future is unknown because it doesn't exist.

 

[KWED]

But he took a gamble when trying Angels with Adam, it was expected all prostrate to Adam but not all did. Then took a gamble and let Iblis challenge his chosen Adam and humanity. Then when things unexpectedly fell apart, he took a further gamble in creating a fallen world.

Wrong again.
Allah always knew that all these things would happen. There was no gamble. And they only happened because Allah willed and decreed that they would happen.

It was unexpected that Iblis refuses. It was unexpected Adam the elite chosen one, doubts and wavers. It was unexpected humanity turns away from chosen Guides like Seth, Enoch, and Noah, and disobey God.

Don't be ridiculous! Nothing is unexpected to god. To claim that it is is to reject the vary nature of god.

This would be like me deciding to drop a glass on a tiled floor, knowing that it would smash, and then acting surprised and blaming the glass when it falls and breaks.

 

[KWED]

The future is unknown because it doesn't exist.

So you believe that Allah doesn't know the future and doesn't decree some future events.
Are you sure that you are a Muslim?

 

[Link]

So you believe that Allah doesn't know the future and doesn't decree some future events.
Are you sure that you are a Muslim?

He decrees some things but can always change and erase his decrees except to what he promises unconditionally.

I'm a heretic to most Muslims and official Islam.

 

[KWED]

Not if free-will is to be the decision. He wants human and Jinn to worship God out of free-will.

Ah, I see you are beginning to understand the free-will paradox. If god knows and determines future events then there in no free will regarding those events.
But if god does not know and determine future events, he is not god.
Yikes!

 

[Link]

Ah, I see you are beginning to understand the free-will paradox. If god knows and determines future events then there in no free will regarding those events.
But if god does not know and determine future events, he is not god.
Yikes!

That is true but aside from that future and past don't exist. Only present does. Future can't be known if it has not come to being yet.

Jinn often because of their supernatural abilities try to predict the future. A lot of it they can, a lot of it they cannot. But if humans don't free themselves from the sorcery and influence of Satan, we become predictable to them.

 

[KWED]

He decrees some things but can always change and erase his decrees except to what he promises unconditionally.

But he doesn't know what he will do tomorrow?

I'm a heretic to most Muslims and official Islam.

That is pretty obvious!
So why do you think you are a Muslim if you disagree with fundamental tenets of Islam? Has Allah revealed an updated message to you?

 

[KWED]

That is true but aside from that future and past don't exist. Only present does. Future can't be known if it has not come to being yet.

Jinn often because of their supernatural abilities try to predict the future. A lot of it they can, a lot of it they cannot. But if humans don't free themselves from the sorcery and influence of Satan, we become predictable to them.

So Jinn can know the future, but Allah cannot.

 

[Link]

But he doesn't know what he will do tomorrow?

Every day he is a state, reacting to real time and real time prayers of his Guardian king on earth as well as Angels and past Guides as well as believers, as well, assessing actions. He is not a computer that he has to respond but if we are humble and meet the criteria of prayers, he will respond.

So why do you think you are a Muslim if you disagree with fundamental tenets of Islam? Has Allah revealed an updated message to you?

The Quran is very clear that God is yet to know people as to who will strive, who will enter paradise, and it testing us to know us. While he knows us before from our pledge, he wants to see who will fulfill the pledge, who will redeem themselves, etc. The exception is his chosen. He knows what is before them and after them mainly because he heard their pledge and knows for certain they will remain on the straight path whether they waver here and there, he trusts them to come back and remain on the straight path.