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God is "the Regretful Gambler"?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

God could've not created anything and also he could've created things in a way that guarantees their guidance.

He looked at his creation and was happy that it was good, and really lucked out with the exalted best of the best.

But he took a gamble when trying Angels with Adam, it was expected all prostrate to Adam but not all did. Then took a gamble and let Iblis challenge his chosen Adam and humanity. Then when things unexpectedly fell apart, he took a further gamble in creating a fallen world.

The Torah has a verse that God regretted creating humans when Noah's people were drowned. We had in us now a culture, that would rebel against God and deny his signs.

Both Jinn and Humans, this was not odd or bad or evil or strange, it became the norm. Time and time again.

I use to find fault with that verse, but after reflecting, it seems it's true.

God wanted a perfect world. When Error handling world was created, it was to fix us and help us and guide us back, but the result is the opposite. And this is God's words in my view:

"...and if he wished he could've gave every soul it's guidance, but his word has come true (ie. promise to Iblis) that he will fill the hell with humans and Jinn all together (that disbelieve)"

It seems it's saying God could've created this world in a way that guarantees guidance, but the gambles were made, and his promise remains, and so there is no turning back now.

This is a sad world. And God expresses his grief in Surah Yaseen:

"Oh (intense) grief over my servants, there comes not them a Messenger except regarding him they would mock."

So why did he gamble? In my view, it's because the reward in freely choosing to worship God is just better. His relationship with us would be better. We would feel better about ourselves and each other and him.

It was unexpected that Iblis refuses. It was unexpected Adam the elite chosen one, doubts and wavers. It was unexpected humanity turns away from chosen Guides like Seth, Enoch, and Noah, and disobey God.

What has happened has happened.

There is still a way to fix things before the final non-Nabi Messenger comes, the Mahdi. And the return of Jesus and Elijah and Enoch and other chosen ones, we can prepare for them, bringing them back on good terms.

If they come back on bad terms, I fear the disgrace that will fall upon us will be great and cities destroyed will be majority (with very little believing).
 
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Lain

Well-Known Member
Salam

God could've not created anything and also he could've created things in a way that guarantees their guidance.

He looked at his creation and was happy that it was good, and really lucked out with the exalted best of the best.

But he took a gamble when trying Adam with Angels, it was expected all prostrate to Adam but not all did. Then took a gamble and let Iblis challenge his chosen Adam and humanity. Then when things unexpectedly fell apart, he took a further gamble in creating a fallen world.

The Torah has a verse that God regretted creating humans when Noah's people were drowned. We had in us now a culture, that would rebel against God and deny his signs.

Both Jinn and Humans, this was not odd or bad or evil or strange, it became the norm. Time and time again.

I use to find fault with that verse, but after reflecting, it seems it's true.

God wanted a perfect world. When Error handling world was created, it was to fix us and help us and guide us back, but the result is the opposite. And this is God's words in my view:

"...and if he wished he could've gave every soul it's guidance, but his word has come true (ie. promise to Iblis) that he will fill the hell with humans and Jinn all together (that disbelieve)"

It seems it's saying God could've created this world in a way that guarantees guidance, but the gambles were made, and his promise remains, and so there is no turning back now.

This is a sad world. And God expresses his grief in Surah Yaseen:

"Oh (intense) grief over my servants, there comes not them a Messenger except regarding him they would mock."

So why did he gamble? In my view, it's because the reward in freely choosing to worship God is just better. His relationship with us would be better. We would feel better about ourselves and each other and him.

It was unexpected that Iblis refuses. It was unexpected Adam the elite chosen one, doubts and wavers. It was unexpected humanity turns away from chosen Guides like Seth, Enoch, and Noah, and disobey God.

What has happened has happened.

There is still a way to fix things before the final non-Nabi Messenger comes, the Mahdi. And the return of Jesus and Elijah and Enoch and other chosen ones, we can prepare for them, bringing them back on good terms.

If they come back on bad terms, I fear the disgrace that will fall upon us will be great and cities destroyed will be majority (with very little believing).

Does it not go against God knowing all things for Him to have something truly unexpected happen? Or would it not also go against Him freely making the world as it is for things having to be as they are so that some could freely choose to worship Him? A free choice can be made between good and good, not good and evil in my opinion. I think God made the world exactly as it is knowing everything that would happen in it and freely chose to make this one. I consider things to be as great and blessed as they can be.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does it not go against God knowing all things for Him to have something truly unexpected happen?

He knew it can happen but also knew it was so mathematically unlikely, he would risk it. We live in a unlikely world.

This is why people when reading about Iblis not submitting, don't understand it. Nothing rationally or likely about this.

Nothing likely about Adam disobeying God either.

All of it was very unlikely to happen. And people rejecting miracles of Seth to Noah and obeying leaders with no proof, all this was unlikely.

It's because the world in it's corrupted state outwardly and inwardly, is so unlikely, that Atheists reject God with the problem of evil as well.

There is no explaining it as a first choice. It's a back up plan of back up plans we are in.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Could He not also just have changed the odds? Nothing that is created is necessary to me to be as it is.

Not if free-will is to be the decision. He wants human and Jinn to worship God out of free-will.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Once the decisions were made and promises made, there is no going back. In the start, he could have taken no gambles, and I'm saying from the knowledge of now, he would not take same decision, but there was no way to know future at that point. It was the right decision given the odds, but, he regrets it as the Torah says. He didn't do anything wrong, this is not what I'm saying, I'm saying, with knowledge of now, he would do different if he knew the result would be what it is today. But there is no going back now, promises are to be kept, the challenges made, and the gamble consequences are there.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
To me, this all sounds like an elaborate ad hoc explanation for why the world appears exactly as we would expect if there were no benevolent guiding force, and why it always seems up to us alone to determine humanity's course.

"There's totally an all powerful god who wants the best for us and could've made everything so much better, but he messed up...I mean, uh, we messed up in a way that is entirely our fault and not the god who made us knowing ahead of time how we would mess up, and still chose to make us this way instead of another way. Yep, we are totally to blame here. Oh, and he can't fix it all by snapping his fingers for such and such ad hoc reasons. And that's why reality appears to be indifferent and randomly full of lucky breaks or pointless suffering, and also why you should come to our church, do what we say, and tithe your money or god will torture you."
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me, this all sounds like an elaborate ad hoc explanation for why the world appears exactly as we would expect if there were no benevolent guiding force, and why it always seems up to us alone to determine humanity's course.

"There's totally an all powerful god who wants the best for us and could've made everything so much better, but he messed up...I mean, uh, we messed up in a way that is entirely our fault and not the god who made us knowing ahead of time how we would mess up, and still chose to make us this way instead of another way. Yep, we are totally to blame here. Oh, and he can't fix it all by snapping his fingers for such and such ad hoc reasons. And that's why reality appears to be indifferent and randomly full of lucky breaks or pointless suffering, and also why you should come to our church, do what we say, and tithe your money or god will torture you."

This appearance of a fallen world without a right explanation does lead to Atheism. But the explanation is an explanation that makes sense and also has plenty of proofs.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
This appearance of a fallen world without a right explanation does lead to Atheism. But the explanation is an explanation that makes sense and also has plenty of proofs.

Fair enough, and I appreciate the reply and conversation.

For me, the explanation you've offered has no "proofs," and so it indistinguishable from the infinite array of other explanations anyone could invent using ad hoc reasoning or post hoc rationalization. I think other people have recently pointed out that your usage of "evidence" and "proof" is inconsistent with the conventional usage, and generally doesn't rise to the same higher standard the rest of us use.

Consider that your explanation is certainly a sufficient explanation because, if true, it would explain everything we see. In can "make sense" in that respect. It sounds like that alone counts as "proof" to you? And yet I can post hoc rationalize an infinite number of equally sufficient explanations that contradict yours, that also make sense if true, and that all have an identical empirical basis in the reality we can observe. This is precisely why the scientific method was developed, to act as a filter to reliably sift out the few explanations that are likely true from the vast array of explanations that are likely merely imaginary.

Specifically, it is the creation of a predictive model, which can make new and accurate predictions about future discoveries, that provides evidence that supports one explanation over the others and meets the evidentiary standards of someone outside of your faith who does not already believe. And theism has never risen to this level of evidence. Apologetics has never risen to this level. Stories in books have never risen to this level.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is explanation is just part of the over all guidance, itself, is not sufficient proof I agree.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If they come back on bad terms, I fear the disgrace that will fall upon us will be great and cities destroyed will be majority (with very little believing).
Oh, I tremble at the thought. Thanks for forewarning us.

Trembling-in-Fear001-GiveMeSomeEnglish.gif
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, I tremble at the thought.

Trembling-in-Fear001-GiveMeSomeEnglish.gif

Most humans always mocked this part of the message of Messengers (a), it's a serious threat, and there are destroyed cities known with advanced technology through out the earth, but the elite are keeping this all hidden. That's a story for another thread or another day though.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
So why did he gamble?...

I don't think He gambled. He created people that have free will and by what the Bible tells knew that they would reject Him, which is why He also prepared Jesus so that people have chance to come back.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't think He gambled. He created people that have free will and by what the Bible tells knew that they would reject Him, which is why He also prepared Jesus so that people have chance to come back.

If God knew this world would happen with certainty, to me, it would be evil for it to have created it.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I don't think He gambled. He created people that have free will and by what the Bible tells knew that they would reject Him, which is why He also prepared Jesus so that people have chance to come back.

This is what I've never understood. Why would a god set up this elaborate game, with vague and uncertain rules, with thought crimes, and with infinite torture being the outcome for everyone who loses the game (which is almost everyone)? And the few people who win the game get "perfected" in heaven so they won't feel bad about the rest of their friends and family being tortured forever, and are then relegated to glorifying and praising this god for eternity. Oh, and this god knew in advance that all the losers would lose, but chose to create them anyway.

To me, this sounds like exactly what an evil god would do. Even if I became convinced with evidence that this sort of god existed, it would be morally impossible for me to actually praise, revere, or respect such a monster. An evil monster with infinite power is still an evil monster.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is what I've never understood. Why would a god set up this elaborate game, with vague and uncertain rules, with thought crimes, and with infinite torture being the outcome for everyone who loses the game (which is almost everyone)? And the few people who win the game get "perfected" in heaven so they won't feel bad about the rest of their friends and family being tortured forever, and are then relegated to glorifying and praising this god for eternity. Oh, and this god knew in advance that all the losers would lose, but chose to create them anyway.

To me, this sounds like exactly what an evil god would do. Even if I became convinced with evidence that this sort of god existed, it would be morally impossible for me to actually praise, revere, or respect such a monster. An evil monster with infinite power is still an evil monster.

I agree - this is why hadiths say God is not worshipped better than with belief about anything him like the belief in Bida (innovation), he innovates his will in real time. This means his decisions are not set nor are they set calculations he has to make, he makes decisions and innovates in real time. Future is not written.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
If God knew this world would happen with certainty, to me, it would be evil for it to have created it.

That's really interesting that you believe that. I've always assumed that Islam had a similar position on god's perfect foreknowledge as Christianity. I guess I learned something today. That's definitely less of a logical contradiction than the Christian doctrine, and not obviously evil. Cool.

Edit: Oh, that's not the Muslim doctrine but your personal position. Still, I respect your position much more than the official one!
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's really interesting that you believe that. I've always assumed that Islam had a similar position on god's perfect foreknowledge as Christianity. I guess I learned something today.

It does, I'm a heretic to most Muslims. This a reason among many why I don't really consider myself "Muslim", but do consider myself "submitter to God through Mohammad (s)".
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Remember Islam as is, to me is false. Islam as meant to be is true but unknown even to me.
 
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