God is not all powerful and loving debate.

[pandamonk]

I doubt He would expect something from us that He knew we couldn't do under our own faculties. I think Adam and Eve had it in them to understand that they shouldn't have done that. Assuming satisfactory information was given, it wouldn't change and they would of screwed up anyways. Me on the other hand, I probably would of made apple pie from all those apples..

Shouldn't have? What after they did it? Sure they would have understood after they did it, they would then have the knowledge of good and evil. You doubt he would expect it? Well, if he did, then why make a tree of knowledge of good and evil, if they already had this knowledge? If they did, surely they would have been ashamed to be naked, etc, before they ate?

 

[mr.guy]

When and how did God suffer?

oohh...i like that one. Having said as much, i think you just set yourself up.

 

[pandamonk]

I will just add my viewpoint if anyone is interested, not try and dispute others.

I think we are in the best possible scenario. And no matter how much my infantile mind might think I know better than God, I can't see the true implications of even the slightest change of God's will.

Do Protestants believe God is immutable(unchanging)? If so, then how can his will change?

 

[pandamonk]

oohh...i like that one. Having said as much, i think you just set yourself up.

Set myself us for what? Am I going to get the whole "jesus dying on the cross"? Surely that was self-inflicted though? Can God make himself suffer? Surely that's another argument like the "can God make a rock to heavy for him to lift"?

 

[pandamonk]

Set myself us for what? Am I going to get the whole "jesus dying on the cross"? Surely that was self-inflicted though? Can God make himself suffer? Surely that's another argument like the "can God make a rock to heavy for him to lift"?

Hey, that's a good argument against people saying Jesus is God, is it not? It will make them choose between Jesus being God and allowing the "can God make a rock too heavy for him to lift" argument, and Jesus not being God and keeping the argument that this argument is illogical and impossible.

 

[pandamonk]

Anyway...I'm off to bed. It's 1.40. Goodnight(or day)

 

[mr.guy]

Hey, that's a good argument against people saying Jesus is God, is it not? It will make them choose between Jesus being God and allowing the "can God make a rock too heavy for him to lift" argument, and Jesus not being God and keeping the argument that this argument is illogical and impossible.

Where's the fallacious logic denying god any indulgence in sadomasocism?

 

[Quiddity]

Shouldn't have? What after they did it? Sure they would have understood after they did it, they would then have the knowledge of good and evil. You doubt he would expect it? Well, if he did, then why make a tree of knowledge of good and evil, if they already had this knowledge? If they did, surely they would have been ashamed to be naked, etc, before they ate?

The state of mind before the fall is philosophical and not entirely known. What is known is enough to have it stand. I had already told you that them having added information wouldn't of made them not eat from the tree. Why? Because of human weakness. Plain and simple. That's why I said I know I would have made an apple pie. Did God know? Certainly. Does that take away from choice? Not at all.

~Victor

 

[pandamonk]

The state of mind before the fall is philosophical and not entirely known. What is known is enough to have it stand. I had already told you that them having added information wouldn't of made them not eat from the tree. Why? Because of human weakness. Plain and simple. That's why I said I know I would have made an apple pie. Did God know? Certainly. Does that take away from choice? Not at all.

~Victor

But I said them having the knowledge of good and evil would of greatly restricted them from eating of the tree. I've used this example before. Tell a baby not to play with matches because it could hurt itself. It knows it could hurt itself because you told it, but it does not underestand that it could hurt itself, so goes ahead and plays. Tell an adult or even adolescent not to play with matches because they could hurt themselves and they are much more likely not to play, although mainy, especially adolescents, still do. But the chance that they will a greatly reduced. Obviously it does not take away from choice because the baby had the same choice as the adult. But, I dont believe the baby knew of its choice, and don't believe Adam and Eve would either.

 

[Ðanisty]

But I said them having the knowledge of good and evil would of greatly restricted them from eating of the tree. I've used this example before. Tell a baby not to play with matches because it could hurt itself. It knows it could hurt itself because you told it, but it does not underestand that it could hurt itself, so goes ahead and plays. Tell an adult or even adolescent not to play with matches because they could hurt themselves and they are much more likely not to play, although mainy, especially adolescents, still do. But the chance that they will a greatly reduced. Obviously it does not take away from choice because the baby had the same choice as the adult. But, I dont believe the baby knew of its choice, and don't believe Adam and Eve would either.

It's the difference between knowing and understanding. Adam and Eve knew they shouldn't eat the fruit because God told them not to. They didn't, however, understand why they shouldn't eat the fruit. They couldn't understand it because they weren't equipped to understand it (because they did not yet know good and evil.) The whole thing was essentially a trap. God already knew they could not help but eat the fruit, but he punished them anyway.

 

[pandamonk]

Where's the fallacious logic denying god any indulgence in sadomasocism?

Like the "can god create a rock to heavy for him to lift argument", My argument is, "can God cause pain to an omnipotent being(himself)? If so, that being cannot be all powerful, as it has a weakness which god has found and inflicted pain through. If not, then God cannot be omnipotent as it cannot do everything." It's not the best of arguments, but works if you think of god sacraficing himself through Jesus. How can this be possible?

 

[pandamonk]

It's the difference between knowing and understanding. Adam and Eve knew they shouldn't eat the fruit because God told them not to. They didn't, however, understand why they shouldn't eat the fruit. They couldn't understand it because they weren't equipped to understand it (because they did not yet know good and evil.) The whole thing was essentially a trap. God already knew they could not help but eat the fruit, but he punished them anyway.

This is exactly what I'm meaning.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Like the "can god create a rock to heavy for him to lift argument", My argument is, "can God cause pain to an omnipotent being(himself)? If so, that being cannot be all powerful, as it has a weakness which god has found and inflicted pain through. If not, then God cannot be omnipotent as it cannot do everything." It's not the best of arguments, but works if you think of god sacraficing himself through Jesus. How can this be possible?

God cannot make a triangle with five sides because it would no longer be a triange. If God created a god more powerful than himself, which technically he has the power to do, it would threaten his omniscience by definition. God does not do anything that would threaten his omniscience, if God is onmiscient.

I guess this is one of the things that we can ask God when we see her.

 

[mr.guy]

...My argument is, "can God cause pain to an omnipotent being(himself)? If so, that being cannot be all powerful, as it has a weakness which god has found and inflicted pain through....How can this be possible?

How can it not be? You have to first prove that pain is definately weakness. I don't see the problem with god hurting himself.

 

[pandamonk]

How can it not be? You have to first prove that pain is definately weakness. I don't see the problem with god hurting himself.

pain
n.

1. An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.
2. Suffering or distress.
3. pains The pangs of childbirth.
4. pains Great care or effort: take pains with one's work.
5. Informal. A source of annoyance; a nuisance.

Surely injury, disease, emotional disorder, suffering, distress, and annoyance are all caused by weakensses.

 

[pandamonk]

God cannot make a triangle with five sides because it would no longer be a triange. If God created a god more powerful than himself, which technically he has the power to do, it would threaten his omniscience by definition. God does not do anything that would threaten his omniscience, if God is onmiscient.

I guess this is one of the things that we can ask God when we see her.

I think you mean omnipotence. You can't make anything more than all. Surely if you could, the first "all" would not have been all, but merely a lot. Surely God causing himself, though Jesus or not, pain would restrict his power as it shows he has a weakness of some sort.

 

[Quiddity]

But I said them having the knowledge of good and evil would of greatly restricted them from eating of the tree. I've used this example before. Tell a baby not to play with matches because it could hurt itself. It knows it could hurt itself because you told it, but it does not underestand that it could hurt itself, so goes ahead and plays. Tell an adult or even adolescent not to play with matches because they could hurt themselves and they are much more likely not to play, although mainy, especially adolescents, still do. But the chance that they will a greatly reduced. Obviously it does not take away from choice because the baby had the same choice as the adult. But, I dont believe the baby knew of its choice, and don't believe Adam and Eve would either.

I believe they were more capable then a baby and understood what choice was.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think you mean omnipotence. You can't make anything more than all. Surely if you could, the first "all" would not have been all, but merely a lot. Surely God causing himself, though Jesus or not, pain would restrict his power as it shows he has a weakness of some sort.

You're right. I meant omnipotence.

You're also right, you cannot add anything to the "omni" of "omnipotence." However, omnipotence is limited to its definition. God is able to do all things that God is able to do. Even God cannot limit God's omnipotence. For exmaple, God cannot see the future, but it does not limit God's omnipotence because it is something that is beyond power, like the ability to make a four sided triangle. Just because we can think it up does not mean that it is something that it is possible for God to do. It's a brain teaser, but it makes sense.

 

[pandamonk]

I believe they were more capable then a baby and understood what choice was.

What reason do you have for this belief? They could not have know good and evil or they would have been embarrassed from the nakedness before they ate. How could they have known the evilness of what God was threatening if they did not know evil?

 

[mr.guy]

Surely injury, disease, emotional disorder, suffering, distress, and annoyance are all caused by weakensses.

How so? I thought they were caused by god.