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God is not all powerful and loving debate.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ryan2065, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Sorry, Pandamonk, it is you who is not getting the message.

    He knows all the possible outcomes to every situation (a bit like a chess master knows all the responses to one move, and to the next ad-infinitum.

    He knew the chances were that they would, because they were weak and 'temptable' humans; but he did not necessarilly know.

    Had he done so, he would have taken away their free will; if they were unable to sin, they could not have chosen to sin.
     
  2. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    I never suggested that he take away their ability to sin. I suggested that he gave them the knowledge of good and evil, so they would know that doing what God says not to do is wrong, therefore making it a lot less likely that they would sin. They really did not have a choice if they didn't know what they had to choose between(good and evil). Either this, or not create at all. This is what I've been trying to say, and yes i got the message but saw a flaw in it.
     
  3. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    Why did he not make them less temptable? The chances of them eating of the tree were infinite, as they would not experience death before they ate of it, so would live eternally in the presence of the tree. The likelihood that they would eat of it are huge. Especially since they could not know that it is wrong to deceive God and eat from the tree.
     
  4. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I would disagree with that part. God cannot break the law of non-countradiction. And self-refutation. and Moral laws :)
     
  5. Ðanisty

    Ðanisty Well-Known Member

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    It's strange that you're using this argument. These are the reasons that I don't want to go to heaven anyway. A place where everything is good all the time? How would we know it was good? Would it even be good or would we just not know the difference? If humans were made to have these experiences and understand good from bad, then I don't think heaven was made for us because it will be a place where our experiences would be useless anyway.

    Are you sure? Based on the things I've seen, read, and experienced, it's the only logical conclusion.
     
  6. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    Is that what you take from genesis 3? It seems to me that god was a little afraid of man and wanted to control him. It would seem that god did not want us to become like him at all.
    Genesis 3:
    22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


    23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    What do you get from those passages? And where in the bible does it say that what you wrote above that, that is what god wants from us? Or is what you just wrote what you have been taught by someone interperting the bible for you?
     
  7. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    So someone telling you "don't do that" is not sufficient to stop you from doing it? Assuming there was nothing necessarily wrong with it, they (fill in the blank) just didn't want you to do it.
     
  8. Ðanisty

    Ðanisty Well-Known Member

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    I know this isn't directed at me, but I have an answer anyway. No, that is not enough. I want to know why. I want someone to make me understand. I want someone to give me a good enough reason. I want to make the decision for myself whether I should do something or not and I want that decision to be an informed one. I wouldn't jump off a bridge if someone told me to either...
     
  9. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Informed opinions are always a good thing. But what could you possibly tell someone to further their knowledge in things like this? As an example: I don't like people flicking my ears, whether it hurts or not. What could you possibly add to that? Not much. He/she just doesn't like it. But of course the tree had more meaning then that. It's wrong because she/he doesn't like it. It's as simple as that. Not conforming to that will get you in trouble.

    ~Victor
     
  10. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    They did know and understand the consequences. "If you eat of it, you will surely die." You can't get much plainer than that.

    So they could experience moratlity and all the joys and suffering that comes with it.
    Because nobody can make an unbiased desicion with anybody hovering over them, let alone God.
    Yes, very funny. He would have saved them from "death," but would have kept them from an eternity with their father in heaven.

    You read waaay too much into what people say for your own good.
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    It doesn't limit his goodness. It limits his goodness to stop it now. It's "a few years out of eternity of suffering to allow for an eternity of true joy" vs. "no suffering, and no growth, no joy, no nothing, just stagnacy." You're the one limiting his goodness.

    No, it doesn't. Everybody who will ever live has already been created in spirit. Nobody else is being created.

    Then stop twisting, inferring, and illogically using my words.

    There's no proof of anything!! You can't just pick and choose which non-proven things to argue.

    Pretty much the same stuff that happens here, except of course for the stuff that you neeed a body for.

    You can if you want, but since the sprit world is part of my argumetn about god's goodness, I'm goping to continue using it in this thread.

    Because then we can become like him.

    ... and being like him.

    I've seen lots of differnt definitions of God on this forum, probably because there are lots of differnt theists in this forum.

    It's really only widely accepted by non-theists. Very few theists veiw god the way you do.

    I'm not the one who needs to define God. You say stuff like, "God is not God because he is not perfect (perfection being this)." All I have to say is you're wrong, and why. I don't have to provide an alternative to your sentence or to your definitions, but just tell you why you're wrong.

    I know that. I just don't think perfect means "doing whatever pandamonk thinks in humanity's best interest" or that omnibenevolent means "doing whatever pandamonk thinks causes the least amount of suffering."

    When did I say that God is learning? I said he had to learn in the past... but I don't think he's learning now.

    If he was omnicient, he hasn't had to learn. Don't change verb tense like that.

    I think he's omnipotent, but I don't believe that omnipotent things can create sqare circles or rocks too big to lift.

    Just bcause I have differnt veiws don't go assuming I'm retarded.

    Sicne when did all and infinite have the same meaning? If I have all the tables in teh world, does that mean I have an infinite number of tables? Of course not. I have a finite number of tables, because I have all of them.

    ...rife with logical inconsistencies...

    He learned in much the same way you and I and the rest of mankind are learning. I don't know where it says that. I'd have to dig up the quote.

    Yes, but only because all does not equal infinite, and omnipotent doesn't mean being able to create square circles and rocks so big he can't lift them.

    Pretty easily. I can conceive of a dog so big it could mush houses under its paws, but no such dog can exist.

    Don't be so egotistical. "Your" definition is not "the standard definition."
     
  12. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    I would ask why:D . Yes it usually would stop me, but it would stop a baby(unable to know good and evil)so how could God expect it to stop Adam and Eve(also unable to know good and evil)who were in a state similar to a baby?
     
  13. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I doubt He would expect something from us that He knew we couldn't do under our own faculties. I think Adam and Eve had it in them to understand that they shouldn't have done that. Assuming satisfactory information was given, it wouldn't change and they would of screwed up anyways. Me on the other hand, I probably would of made apple pie from all those apples..:(
     
  14. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    I agree with you that they knew the concequencies, but disagree that they understood. It's like telling a baby that they will get hurt or possibly die if they play with matches. You have told them, so they know that it will happen, but they do not understand and proceed to play and burn themselves. God explained it in such a way that death was evil. They did not have knowledge of good and evil so could not have understood that death was not good for them.

    Why didn't he just give them this ability from that start? Instead of giving it as a punishment after them experiencing perfection?

    Why did he not cut off them off from him from the start? Why do it as a punishment? You can make an unbiased decision with someone hovering over you. I don't understand why you think you cannot.

    In the first he allows them the eternity with God in heaven. In the second he allows them the eternity with God in Eden. What's the difference?


    Thanks very much. Is this just a cop out because you can't think of an opposing argument? If not, why didn't you answer the question?
     
  15. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    How industrious of you! More the progeny of prometheus now, aren't we Vic?
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Come again?
     
  17. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    I thought you were making a twist on the whole "making lemons from lemonade" quip.
    I was just applauding your imaginative approach to instegating an original sin.
     
  18. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Oh I see.

    ~Victor
     
  19. curiouslyminty

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    I will just add my viewpoint if anyone is interested, not try and dispute others.

    I think we are in the best possible scenario. And no matter how much my infantile mind might think I know better than God, I can't see the true implications of even the slightest change of God's will.
     
  20. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    Thanks very much. I never knew i was that powerful to be able to limit a all-powerful beingKnockout . Woohoo :jam:. Lol, kidding aside, you have offered 2 opinions on possible outcomes, when there are others such as "no suffering, ability to grow, ability to experience joy, everything, eternity of true joy". Why is that not a possible outcome? Why do we have to experience suffering to grow and experience joy when it was God who made the rules? He could have made them any way(unless you don't believe god had this choice but does this not limit him somewhat?)


    Ok, i was unaware that this was your belief. And i don't remember how this fits into the argument.


    Please explain where i did this? Where i told you to stop making a personal attack i showed the quote which, most certainly, was intended to be personal.


    I know that I exist. Is this not proof of me at least to myself? Other thing are sensory and i believe them to be true as I have seen the proof and trust my senses. Other things such as the supernatural, there is absolutely no proof which can be shown from one person to another.


    In what way do you suffer and learn?


    But you cannot use something as proof which you and you only(out of me and you)believe. If you are to use it as proof, you must prove it exists.


    When and how did God suffer? The only way we would be like him is if we experienced what he has experienced. If we become like him, does that not make us also gods? Did not God say he is the only God?


    But most follow the same basic structure of a being greater than ourselves, most of which are omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenelovent, creators of the universe.


    Is that why theologians when discussing gods describe them as such? Why we atheists make up definitions of a being they don't even believe in? The definitions have came from phylosophers, theologians, and religious books. God is omnipotent acording to the Bible(the only holy book I really know much about), "God Almighty"


    Well i will never be able to discuss your god, which you keep telling me I'm wrong about, because you wont describe it, will I? So it is up to you to describe your god. I have describe the god I am discussing and you keep telling me this is not your god. I will keep arguing about the god i have repeatedly described until your describe yours. Or are you not telling me because if/when the worst comes to the worst and you cannot offer opposing arguments, you will just tell me that I'm not discussing your god? Therefore eliminating your need for a reply.


    Well please explain what you do think they mean? Also I have never said that I am right and that doing what i say is in the best interest of humanity. I've just offered my opinion. Maybe you cannot except my opinion because it does not contain your God and this leads to personal attacks on me like the one quoted above.


    So are you saying that God was once not omniscient and had to learn to become omniscient? I believe this to be impossibly as omniscient means all-knowing, ie infinite knowledge. If you start without infinite knowledge, no matter how much you learn there will always be more knowledge to be learnt.


    So you're saying he is now but once wasn't? Read above for my argument against.


    I never said he need to be able to do these things to be omnipotent(maybe in past debates but never in this one). I just said that he could of made us differently unless he was limited in the way he created us. But surely he would have the choice of allowing us the knowledge of good and evil while creating rather than planting a tree in the garden. He put the knowledge into the tree, why not put it in their minds?


    When did I ever assume you were retarded? I explained what was meant by omnipotent because you keep telling me I'm miss using the words and don't have the correct meanings and that i should explain what i mean by certain words before i use them.


    Well, is there limit to power?


    Please show these and explain how and why they are inconsistent.


    Please do so. And knowledge is infinite in my opinion, so you cannot go from haveing average knowledge to infinite as i showed before.


    Omnipotent means all-power, power=energy and energy is infinite.


    Why is that better than perfection?


    I disagree. I have read a few phylosophical books and they all mention God in this way. They didn't just make it up so they could argue against it. They got the definitions from theologians and religious books and use the most widely used definitions of gods in their arguments. They do not use the ones held by individual belief systems, if they did they would not be discussing gods in general, but a certain god.
     
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