God is not all powerful and loving debate.

[pandamonk]

Exactly what added information would you give them aside from "don't do it"?

The knowledge that doing what i say not to is wrong.

 

[pandamonk]

Because they had to choose to do it. It had to be their choice to take the knowledge of suffering.

But how could they make the choice when they didn't know what was right or wrong. God gave them a 50/50 chance, they can't be held responsible for their actions if they did not know/understand the concequencies of either action.

For a couple of reasons: One: The consequence of eating is death, and God can't encourage people to kill themselves. Two: A consequence was a cutting off from God. Three: Satan was trying to work against God, so if he said, "Eat from this tree" Satan would have said, "No, don't eat from this tree," and they wouldn't have.

1. Why did he want them to kill themselves? 2. Why did he want them to be cut off from him? 3. In both situations Satan would have done the right thing, the one that happened in the bible allowed Adam and Eve to fullfil God's wants, and if God had told the to eat, Satan would have saved them from death, lol.

He didn't punish them. He allowed them to go through an ordeal that lets them grow far more than they could have done without it.

So you don't call pain(and sometimes death) in child birth suffering?

 

[pandamonk]

It does not limit one or the other. And that paragraph was so convoluted I have no idea what it even meant.

It limited either his omnipotence or his goodness. I asked if he did not want to rid the world of evil. If not(or not right now)that limits his goodness, and he can't(or can't do it immediately)that limits his omnipotence. A being that is all-good and all-powerful, cannot allow evil. They are infinitely good, so just want goodness, and are infinitely powerful so can do whatever they want. If there is something that isn't good, ie evil, then they would surely get rid of it immediately, and if not, then they must either not but all-powerful and maybe just very powerful, or not all-good and maybe just very good.

Yep. He probably thought of that when he finally stopped. He probably didn't want this world to go on forever. It's like this: My parents probably knew that at some point I would have problems in my life. But then, why didn't they kill me when I was a baby? Because by fighting through whatever problems I would have, I can grow to be a good, happy adult. Suffering is fleeting.

When he finally stoped? But there is consatntly babies being born so doesn't this mean he is still creating them. Maybe you meant stops. Why doesn't hew just stop making new lives now and let the ones being born live and die, then rid the world of evil?

Okay, so you're debating me about a God you don't believe in, but when I also say I believe in a spirit world, this suddenly becomes too much to handle? Because this actually makes god logical, doesn't it? And your entire argument is based on an illogical god, isn't it?

Stop making this a personal attack and keep to attacking beliefs ! No, it doesn't make God logical. There is no proof of the spirit world. Also what happens in the spirit world which helps the ones who are there learn? Maybe you should start a debate on the spirit world?

Our eternal good isn't merely God. It's learning and growing and returning to live with him, and then perhaps becoming like him.

This does not show that our eternal good is not just god. What makes learning from suffering eternally good? The only eternally good thing i get from this is the "returning to live with him". Him being the, alleged, eternally infinitely good being.

How do you know? You still haven't adequately defined "his power." What exactly is "his power?" And how do you know what the bounds of "his power" are? Do you see my signiature? You inspired me to make that my signiature, and it applies. See, your problem is, you just sat down one day and said, "this is how god should be." Unfortunately for you, that's not how I see god as being.

Well God is the main topic of discussion in RF, so i would of thought that we both would have seen the definition of a god a thousand times. I'm talking about the widely accepted definition of God, if you have another then it is up to YOU to define it. The one I have been discussing, with not just you, is the perfect, all-loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, creator of the universe. There are other definitions which i have chosen to leave out of this discussion, and they include: immutable, omnipresent, all-just, all-merciful, etc, etc.

Yes he has. I just said that.

How can an omniscient being learn? They know EVERYTHING. Unless you don't believe God is omniscient, in that case, please explain your god.

Because without learning, we could never become like him.

If he is omniscient, he hasn't had to learn.

No.

Why not, he is omnipotent, he could have made us in whatever way he liked. Unless of course you don't think he is omnipotent?

Please define for me omnipotence. I'm sure you're defining omnipotence to mean that he can create a square circle or a rock he cannot lift. So why shouldn't he be able to suffer? Even if you're not going to define your terms for me, you might want to at least try to be internally consitent in your arguments. If you're not going to define your terms for me, at least define them for yourself, so you can create consistent, coherent arguments.

Well omnipotent means all-powerful, this means having infinite power. If a being has infinite power, how can any other being do anything to harm it? Surely it cannot? If so, please explain.

So we can become like god.

But like i said, God has not had to learn, he is omnipotent. Unless he was once not omnipotent, but this means that he is not immutable, which might not be a belief of yours. But how did God learn? Where does it say that God learnt?

Because that's the only way he could create us.

So he was limited?

I don't believe that definition is correct. I think perfection is that which no better can exist, not "be conceiced." Can you live with that term? Because if not, we can't debate.

Ok, nothing better can exist, i agree. But how can you conceive of anything better than perfection?

I know the definition of god and perfection. You're just not using them, so I wanted to know what your "definition" of them was.

Well I have explained my/the standard definition of both God and perfection, so would kindly explain yours? Well God anyway, you explained perfection, and i agree.

 

[blueman]

So, people are always telling me that god is all powerful, meaning no laws exist that god cannot change and break, and that he is all loving, which means that he loves us all.

That being the case, why did he not create a perfect world? I have heard the argument of "this messes with free will" but did not god create the "rules" for free will? And are you saying that it is impossible, even for god, to create a world that is perfect and without disease and does not mess with free will?

And that is exactly God's way of showing you how much He loved, by giving everyone free will and not controlling us as a puppeteer would control a puppet. He allowed you to make free will choices regarding your values, relationships, career pursuits and ultimately, accept Him or reject Him as Lord of your life. Consider life a testing ground, a trust and temporary which are overarching components of God's will for our lives. It is a dangerous thing to underestimate the power, love and mercy of God Almighty. :bounce

 

[mr.guy]

And that is exactly God's way of showing you how much He loved, by giving everyone free will and not controlling us as a puppeteer would control a puppet.

What presicely is so loving about that? If the puppeteer decided to pull our "happy" strings more frequently, who'd complain about autonomy while so blissed out?

He allowed you to make free will choices regarding your values, relationships, career pursuits and ultimately, accept Him or reject Him as Lord of your life.

Sounds more like jealousy then love. Would that be scripturally consistent?

Consider life a testing ground, a trust and temporary which are overarching components of God's will for our lives.

So we have the power to disobey god's will? Dosen't sound like (s)he is quite up to snuff as a being capable of creating a whole reality.

It is a dangerous thing to underestimate the power, love and mercy of God Almighty. :bounce

Or to take lightly the receprical condemnation of fanatics when one refutes their imaginary friends.

 

[blueman]

What presicely is so loving about that? If the puppeteer decided to pull our "happy" strings more frequently, who'd complain about autonomy while so blissed out?

Sounds more like jealousy then love. Would that be scripturally consistent?

So we have the power to disobey god's will? Dosen't sound like (s)he is quite up to snuff as a being capable of creating a whole reality.

Or to take lightly the receprical condemnation of fanatics when one refutes their imaginary friends.

Try to present comments that make sense the next time to respond in a thread. :bounce

 

[mr.guy]

And how are they insensible?

 

[blueman]

And how are they insensible?

Think about what you said and hopefully it will resonate how insensible those comments really were. :bounce

 

[mr.guy]

If you're incapable or unwilling to reply, just say so. It's a little low to blame my statement for poor reasoning without some direction and/or counter argument at least; if it's incoherent (not unheard of in my posts, i'm told) please advise and i'll restate.

 

[blueman]

If you're incapable or unwilling to reply, just say so. It's a little low to blame my statement for poor reasoning without some direction and/or counter argument at least; if it's incoherent (not unheard of in my posts, i'm told) please advise and i'll restate.

So you don't like the fact that your have free will, huh. You wished God controlled everything that you do and think?

 

[mr.guy]

So you don't like the fact that your have free will, huh. You wished God controlled everything that you do and think?

If i do, i promise to say so. Honestly, it would be an ackward statement of resenment towards a god i don't believe in in the first place. Please, i've made several points of argument that you've said are insensible. Why are they so?

 

[pandamonk]

And that is exactly God's way of showing you how much He loved, by giving everyone free will and not controlling us as a puppeteer would control a puppet. He allowed you to make free will choices regarding your values, relationships, career pursuits and ultimately, accept Him or reject Him as Lord of your life. Consider life a testing ground, a trust and temporary which are overarching components of God's will for our lives. It is a dangerous thing to underestimate the power, love and mercy of God Almighty. :bounce

Couldn't you have all these choices and still live in a world without evil?

 

[pandamonk]

So you don't like the fact that your have free will, huh. You wished God controlled everything that you do and think?

Just because you don't understand what he has said does not make it nonsensical

 

[blueman]

Just because you don't understand what he has said does not make it nonsensical

Why don't you present me with the clarity I need to think otherwise regarding those comments.

 

[blueman]

Couldn't you have all these choices and still live in a world without evil?

No, because sin (as it did and continues to do) screwed it up. :bounce

 

[pandamonk]

No, because sin (as it did and continues to do) screwed it up. :bounce

But God could rid the world of sin!!!! grrrr, you have just pulled the argument right back to the start!

 

[blueman]

But God could rid the world of sin!!!! grrrr, you have just pulled the argument right back to the start!

Not by giving creation free will. :bounce

 

[pandamonk]

Not by giving creation free will. :bounce

But from the start before he created, he would have known that we would sin, and therefore could have made us differently so we would not sin but still have free wil. An all good being cannot create sin. By creating us he created sin. God needs to to be all-good to be a god. Therefore a god(as understood by human being as being all-good)cannot exist. So if a god did create us, he voided himself out of existence.

 

[blueman]

But from the start before he created, he would have known that we would sin, and therefore could have made us differently so we would not sin but still have free wil. An all good being cannot create sin. By creating us he created sin. God needs to to be all-good to be a god. Therefore a god(as understood by human being as being all-good)cannot exist. So if a god did create us, he voided himself out of existence.

Wrong. He created us with free will and made man and woman (Adam and Eve) stewards over the earth and the creatures that inhabited it. All He required of them was obedience. As a result of their disobedience, the curse of sin enterered the world. We screwed it up, not God. But through His love, He provides us with a way to redemption and a relationship with Him. That is through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[pandamonk]

Wrong. He created us with free will and made man and woman (Adam and Eve) stewards over the earth and the creatures that inhabited it. All He required of them was obedience. As a result of their disobedience, the curse of sin enterered the world. We screwed it up, not God. But through His love, He provides us with a way to redemption and a relationship with Him. That is through His Son Jesus Christ.

**** sake!!! Actually read what I'm saying! God is omniscient is he not? He knows everything. If this is the case, he would have known that Adam and Eve would sin. If not then what is meant by omniscience? Ok so God would have known that Adam and Eve would sin, and yet he still created them. He had the choice of creating them the way he did, creating them in a way which means they would not sin(giving them the knowledge of good and evil)which in turn would give them free will, or not creating them. The first means that he knew they would commit sin and therefore in creating them he would create evil, the second there is only a very slight chance that they would sin and only a slight chance that he would great evil, and thirdly there is no chance of sin and creating evil. God would void himself out of existence for definite in the first, possibly in the second, and not at all in the third.