God is not all powerful and loving debate.

[pandamonk]

You're right. I meant omnipotence.

You're also right, you cannot add anything to the "omni" of "omnipotence." However, omnipotence is limited to its definition. God is able to do all things that God is able to do. Even God cannot limit God's omnipotence. For exmaple, God cannot see the future, but it does not limit God's omnipotence because it is something that is beyond power, like the ability to make a four sided triangle. Just because we can think it up does not mean that it is something that it is possible for God to do. It's a brain teaser, but it makes sense.

So are you saying God cannot cause himself pain? In accepting this you are saying that God did not come down to earth through Jesus as a sacrafice to save humanity. God cannot cause himself pain, but in sending himself to earth as a sacrafice, he is causing himself pain and suffering. Therefore he could not have sent himself to earth through Jesus.

 

[mr.guy]

However, omnipotence is limited to its definition. God is able to do all things that God is able to do. Even God cannot limit God's omnipotence.

So omnipotence only accounts for what can be done; power over all that is and none over what isn't.

 

[pandamonk]

So are you saying God cannot cause himself pain? In accepting this you are saying that God did not come down to earth through Jesus as a sacrafice to save humanity. God cannot cause himself pain, but in sending himself to earth as a sacrafice, he is causing himself pain and suffering. Therefore he could not have sent himself to earth through Jesus.

This argument is for those who believe Jesus is God. Obviously it serves as nothing if you believe Jesus is not God.

 

[Quiddity]

What reason do you have for this belief? They could not have know good and evil or they would have been embarrassed from the nakedness before they ate. How could they have known the evilness of what God was threatening if they did not know evil?

Why do insist on them knowing evil if:
1. It would most likely prolonged their actions only to do it later.
2. People react on a daily basis without attaching good or evil subconsiously all the time.

I'm not understanding why you think it would make a difference.

~Victor

 

[pandamonk]

So omnipotence only accounts for what can be done; power over all that is and none over what isn't.

If this is true, how can God make something out of nothing?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So omnipotence only accounts for what can be done; power over all that is and none over what isn't.

I think that I can agree with this statement. I am more comfortable with the statement "God is able to do all things that are possible for God to do." It is possible for God to create something out of nothing (Gen 1).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So are you saying God cannot cause himself pain? In accepting this you are saying that God did not come down to earth through Jesus as a sacrafice to save humanity. God cannot cause himself pain, but in sending himself to earth as a sacrafice, he is causing himself pain and suffering. Therefore he could not have sent himself to earth through Jesus.

As a Christian, I confess that Jesus is fully God and fully human. The divinity of Jesus suffered nothing, fully possessing all of the qualities of God and feeling no pain. The human body of Jesus suffered greatly.

There is no hint of God suffering in the NT.

Phil 2
Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,[b] being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col. 1
19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

[jewscout]

If this is true, how can God make something out of nothing?

who's to say that what He as created did not come from His on potential energy?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If this is true, how can God make something out of nothing?

In Genesis, it is recorded that God spoke, which is an anthropomorphism, that is, expressing God's creative action in human terms.

 

[pandamonk]

Why do insist on them knowing evil if:
1. It would most likely prolonged their actions only to do it later.
2. People react on a daily basis without attaching good or evil subconsiously all the time.

I'm not understanding why you think it would make a difference.

~Victor

It may prolong it, or it may mean that they never do it. There is no reason to think that they would definitely do it with the knowledge that it is wrong. Especially with the knowledge that they would surely die if they did. Yes people react without attaching good or evil, but in a choice between good and evil they certainly do. If they've been told something is evil and that there will be evil consequences for doing it, then they will react with the subconscious or even conscious attachment of good and evil

 

[michel]

who's to say that what He as created did not come from His on potential energy?

I think you're putting your head on the chopping board for saying that JS; I have never actually dared put that in so may words..*hides under Feather's kitchen table*......fruballs for the courage though!

 

[Quiddity]

So omnipotence only accounts for what can be done; power over all that is and none over what isn't.

I'm not sure I'm following. Can you clarify please.
Here is a good explanation: http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/o/omnipotence.html

 

[pandamonk]

I think that I can agree with this statement. I am more comfortable with the statement "God is able to do all things that are possible for God to do." It is possible for God to create something out of nothing (Gen 1).

So, god is only able to do what God can do? This is obvious. I can only do what i can do. What Mr. Guy suggested is a better explanation. Genisis does not prove anything.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So, god is only able to do what God can do? This is obvious. I can only do what i can do. What Mr. Guy suggested is a better explanation. Genisis does not prove anything.

There is no proof whatsoever for the metaphysical God. However, if we are going to discuss the Christian God's omnipotence, the Bible is our source.

EDIT: What God can do is not so obvious or we wouldn't have discussed it, and you're different from God.

 

[pandamonk]

who's to say that what He as created did not come from His on potential energy?

Who to say that the universe did not begin itself out of potential energy? You may ask, "well where did that energy come from?"or"Who created this energy?" and i don't know. "But then i ask where did God come from?" or "Who created God?"

 

[angellous_evangellous]

who's to say that what He as created did not come from His on potential energy?

That would be the same thing as from nothing in the sense that God created everything from nothing outside of "himself".

 

[Quiddity]

who's to say that what He as created did not come from His on potential energy?

Why didn't I think of that? Nice...:clap

 

[pandamonk]

There is no proof whatsoever for the metaphysical God. However, if we are going to discuss the Christian God's omnipotence, the Bible is our source.

But we cannot accept that the Bible is fully true. The only reason we would do is if it was God given, but that already assumes the existence of God. What we are discussing boils down to God's existence, so we cannot start by assuming God exists.

 

[Quiddity]

or it may mean that they never do it.

I don't believe this one bit. The point is that people sin, are weak, and they get attached to things easily and it takes control of them. Let's disagree.

~Victor

 

[pandamonk]

As a Christian, I confess that Jesus is fully God and fully human. The divinity of Jesus suffered nothing, fully possessing all of the qualities of God and feeling no pain. The human body of Jesus suffered greatly.

There is no hint of God suffering in the NT.

Phil 2
Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,[b] being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col. 1
19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Surely if Jesus was fully God then it would mean that when Jesus suffered so would God. It may not mention that he did in the Bible, but if someone suffers, they suffer. If someone if fully God and suffers, then God suffers. If Jesus did not suffer, then what does his death matter to anything? His sacrafice was about him suffering to save us for our sins. So either he didn't suffer and his means nothing. Or he did suffer and so did God.