God is Holy, Man is fallen and needs salvation

[Left Coast]

Originally there was No 'own other people as property' in the Garden of Eden days.
Even when the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic law ended there was still on-going slavery.
Jesus did Not teach to own other people as property.

The New Testament repeatedly endorses slavery. It's not just a "Mosaic Law" thing.

Jesus taught there will be an end as conditions on Earth will become as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
In other words, through Jesus, there will be No slavery abusive, economic (job) or otherwise.

Thankfully, we don't need to wait for some day that may never come to make changes to the conditions on Earth. We outlawed slavery all on our own, without Jesus coming back.

But I'm glad you at least admit that slavery is immoral.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The New Testament repeatedly endorses slavery. It's not just a "Mosaic Law" thing.
Thankfully, we don't need to wait for some day that may never come to make changes to the conditions on Earth. We outlawed slavery all on our own, without Jesus coming back.................

NT was Not endorsing the slave-trade business but the circumstances of that time - Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1
That 'Day' (thousand-year day ) will come.
Come because we are in the last days of the last days of badness on Earth 2 Timothy 3
Come because we are at the final international phase of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Come because when the powers in charge are saying, "Peace and Security..." that is the final signal before the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 breaks out.

 

[Left Coast]

NT was Not endorsing the slave-trade business but the circumstances of that time - Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1

This, again, is an excuse. When you tell slaves to obey their masters and not to seek freedom from slavery, that's endorsement. Christian leaders had no problem telling Christians to do things differently from others when it came to things they truly objected to.

Why are you spending so much energy making excuses for something so awful?

That 'Day' (thousand-year day ) will come.

In your opinion.

Come because we are in the last days of the last days of badness on Earth 2 Timothy 3
Come because we are at the final international phase of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Come because when the powers in charge are saying, "Peace and Security..." that is the final signal before the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 breaks out.

Your organization has been repeatedly wrong about the timing of the end times. I don't trust their predictions any more than any other fortune teller.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How does your answer justify God killing the innocent firstborn children of the Egyptians?

A 50-year old can be a first born. Being first born does Not have to mean innocent.
Like today, in Noah's Day the parents were responsible for minor children.
No parent chose to place themselves on the Ark nor any of their children.
Remember: besides Noah being an Ark builder, Noah was a preacher - 2 Peter 2:5
Those people were forewarned as we are also forewarned today - 2 Peter 3:9

 

[ElishaElijah]

You're continuing to make excuses. People who live by the Golden Rule would not own other people as property. Yet in the Bible it's perfectly fine to own people as property. That's a problem.

So stop. You're just digging the hole deeper for yourself.

Explaining how we got somewhere concerning slavery whether in the past or currently is not making excuses although it seems you’re giving mankind a pass.
Slavery is an idea and practice mankind is in the habit of doing, even today. You mentioned abuse, what are we doing about this in today’s society for example Jacob Blake- the female says how he abused her, restraining order
Police called for protection, he ends up getting shot and he’s some kind of hero or victim.

 

[Left Coast]

Explaining how we got somewhere concerning slavery whether in the past or currently is not making excuses although it seems you’re giving mankind a pass.
Slavery is an idea and practice mankind is in the habit of doing, even today. You mentioned abuse, what are we doing about this in today’s society for example Jacob Blake- the female says how he abused her, restraining order
Police called for protection, he ends up getting shot and he’s some kind of hero or victim.

It turns out we can both condemn slavery from the past as condoned by the Bible and also condemn modern domestic violence and even human trafficking etc. I can and do condemn both. Unfortunately you don't.

 

[ElishaElijah]

@Left Coast
I brought up how adoption was similar to human beings being bought and sold like property and you seemed to justify that. Personally I’m glad children are being placed in homes, but to deny people are profiting like they are a commodity or property, a way to make money. This further shows the depravity of man because God doesn’t do these things. God needs nothing from us yet still provides for us.
The Truth About the Adoption Industry | Adoption & Birth Mothers*

 

[ElishaElijah]

It turns out we can both condemn slavery from the past as condoned by the Bible and also condemn modern domestic violence and even human trafficking etc. I can and do condemn both. Unfortunately you don't.

Wrong assumption on your part

 

[Left Coast]

@Left Coast
I brought up how adoption was similar to human beings being bought and sold like property and you seemed to justify that.

No, what I did was define it. Children aren't property. Slaves are property. So the difference is basic.

What you're doing is pretending that conquering another people group and capturing them as slaves, or condemning people to slavery simply because their parents were slaves, is somehow morally equivalent to adopting children. Which is laughably absurd, and I think on some level you must know that. So this whole adoption rabbit trail is a distraction.

 

[Left Coast]

Wrong assumption on your part

Which assumption? So you do condemn Biblical slavery as immoral?

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, what I did was define it. Children aren't property. Slaves are property. So the difference is basic.

What you're doing is pretending that conquering another people group and capturing them as slaves, or condemning people to slavery simply because their parents were slaves, is somehow morally equivalent to "adopting" them. Which is laughably absurd, and I think on some level you must know that. So this whole adoption rabbit trail is a distraction.

No, it’s not, but you are lumping chattel slavery that’s condemned in scripture for every application. You saying God has condoned these things. No, He has not. This was all man’s doing and it continues to this day. God does not enslave people, men do.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, what I did was define it. Children aren't property. Slaves are property. So the difference is basic.

What you're doing is pretending that conquering another people group and capturing them as slaves, or condemning people to slavery simply because their parents were slaves, is somehow morally equivalent to adopting children. Which is laughably absurd, and I think on some level you must know that. So this whole adoption rabbit trail is a distraction.

I wasn’t saying any of that, I was taking a current situation in our society where people are bought and sold for profit.
What about Jacob Blake situation?
What should be the penalty for kidnapping and the sex trade going on in our society? This is condemned and a death penalty. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Left Coast]

No, it’s not, but you are lumping chattel slavery that’s condemned in scripture for every application. You saying God has condoned these things. No, He has not. This was all man’s doing and it continues to this day. God does not enslave people, men do.

Well on that point we actually agree, because I don't think God actually does anything. But if we're talking about what men wrote in the Bible, it undeniably condones slavery. Many verses have already been posted for you in this thread.

 

[Left Coast]

I wasn’t saying any of that, I was taking a current situation in our society where people are bought and sold for profit.
What about Jacob Blake situation?
What should be the penalty for kidnapping and the sex trade going on in our society? This is condemned and a death penalty. Do you agree or disagree?

It's fascinating to watch you try to distract from what the Bible actually says about slavery to talk about literally anything else, lol.

I already answered you and said I condemn both modern and Biblical slavery. But you don't, because your preconceived beliefs about the Bible require you to make excuses for it.

 

[74x12]

You're continuing to make excuses. People who live by the Golden Rule would not own other people as property. Yet in the Bible it's perfectly fine to own people as property. That's a problem.

So stop. You're just digging the hole deeper for yourself.

Left Coast, what you're not taking into account is how God deals with people by increments through the ages he slowly but surely unveiled more revelations by the prophets. The Bible was literally given over a span of centuries and even millennia. Each prophet adding some new revelation. So, when the Israelites originally came out of Egypt they were a pretty typical Semitic bronze age culture. I think you expecting them to suddenly have a revolution where they immediately embraced emancipation is quite unrealistic. Considering that it has taken mankind as a whole all this time to embrace the same idea.

I believe God was working with them and the Law of Moses itself is not only a spiritual/moral Law. It was also very much a civil law code for the time period. Governing every aspect of bronze age tribal life. So the issue of slavery also had to be covered for civil reasons. This does not mean that God condones or approves.

In fact as you point out the golden rule strictly forbids all forms of slavery except perhaps slavery which is willingly agreed to by the slave. If there is anyone who wants to be slave which is unusual.

Even Jesus alludes to the fact that God dealt with the Israelites by increments. Notice in Matthew 19:8 Jesus says that Moses allowed them to divorce their wives because of the hardness of their hearts. But he says in the beginning (Genesis) it was not so. That meant God never really liked it. I would say that slavery is the same. I don't see where there were slaves in the beginning with Adam and Eve.

So, God was dealing with the Israelites and slowly bringing them into righteousness. It was probably inconceivable to over throw the institution of slavery in a bronze age culture of the time.

So God was more concerned with the spiritual side of the Law. This was what really mattered. The civil side of the Law was for that time period and was arguably better than nothing. Because at least this way the slaves could have some rights or guarantees under the Law. Otherwise they would have had nothing. Compared to the code of Hammurabi ... slaves have little to no rights. In fact the code of Hammurabi gives you more rights the higher you are in the stratified society. So if you're a noble or priest you have more rights than a commoner and slaves have almost no rights. Compared to this the Law of Moses was quite "liberal" for the time. It should be recognized for this.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It's fascinating to watch you try to distract from what the Bible actually says about slavery to talk about literally anything else, lol.

I already answered you and said I condemn both modern and Biblical slavery. But you don't, because your preconceived beliefs about the Bible require you to make excuses for it.

Incarceration? Community service?

 

[Left Coast]

Left Coast, what you're not taking into account is how God deals with people by increments through the ages he slowly but surely unveiled more revelations by the prophets. The Bible was literally given over a span of centuries and even millennia. Each prophet adding some new revelation. So, when the Israelites originally came out of Egypt they were a pretty typical Semitic bronze age culture. I think you expecting them to suddenly have a revolution where they immediately embraced emancipation is quite unrealistic. Considering that it has taken mankind as a whole all this time to embrace the same idea.

If we assume that the Torah was written by men, then I do hear where you're coming from and it's not at all surprising that the Israelites would keep slaves as many societies did at the time. Like any other writing, the Bible is a human product of its time.

The problem is, fundamentalist Christians want us to believe that the Bible is actually from their morally perfect God and contains no error, factually or morally. So when we're dealing with an omniscient, omnipoten, morally perfect deity, I absolutely do expect him to condemn slavery. If he instead condones and even commands slavery, that is a major moral shortcoming. Arguing that he just couldn't tell the Israelistes not to own other people as property because it was commonplace is a little silly given the other things Yahweh commanded. The whole point of the Torah, per the Torah, is to distinguish the Jews from the surrounding pagan cultures by commanding them to live differently in a variety of ways. It's really not that tough to say: "Hey guys - don't enslave people. It's bad."

I believe God was working with them and the Law of Moses itself is not only a spiritual/moral Law. It was also very much a civil law code for the time period. Governing every aspect of bronze age tribal life. So the issue of slavery also had to be covered for civil reasons. This does not mean that God condones or approves.

If you command someone to do something, or tell them the proper way to do it, that's condoning and approving. Think through this. If I tell you the proper way to bake a cake, is that condemnation of cake baking? No, of course not. I would never tell you how to do something I had a major moral objection to.

So, God was dealing with the Israelites and slowly bringing them into righteousness. It was probably inconceivable to over throw the institution of slavery in a bronze age culture of the time.

Nothing is inconceivable for an omniscient deity, is it?

 

[Left Coast]

Incarceration? Community service?

Bird? Plane? Lamp?

You're deflecting. You know this. Stop.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Bird? Plane? Lamp?

You're deflecting. You know this. Stop.

Isn’t that slavery?

 

[Left Coast]

Isn’t that slavery?

No.