God Has No Free Will?

[Nakosis]

It's generally assumed that a God would have free will, but is it actually necessary?

I suppose it goes along with the assumption of God being omnipotent. However these are assumptions by various religious ideologies. Are the assumptions necessary?

It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.

1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html

 

[WalterTrull]

 

[Sleeppy]

1) Free Will doesn't exist, except as an illogical belief.
2) Omnipotence doesn't exist, except as an illogical idea. However, having full control of all available power is possible.

 

[WalterTrull]

 

[Quintessence]

I'm unaware of "God has free will" being a teaching of classical monotheism. Who is generally assuming this? I'd be interested in seeing some references from theologians in the Abrahamic religions.

 

[Sanzbir]

An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will

That doesn't make sense. Knowledge does not restrict choice.

A Perfect God Has No Free Will

A Moral God Has No Free Will

These arguments make more sense, to a point. A being that is "perfectly moral" will always act in a moral manner. Therefore a "perfectly moral" being will not act in an immoral manner, in a sense, cannot do so.

Of course this being would still have choice if there is more than one equally moral option for action. But presupposing there is only one option that has greater morality than any other option for any given situation then that being, by its nature, would have no choice but to do the most moral option at any given moment.

All this also, of course, assuming that God can be described as perfectly moral.

And also, of course, assuming there is an objective standard for morality.

God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will

Free will is tied to time?? That needs to be shown.

How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?

Obviously, if we are to assume free will is a "created thing", then before the moment of "free will's" creation, nothing can have free will.

However, once "free will" is created, there is no reason in this theoretical scenario that the entity that created free will could not then give itself "free will". Like how a computer could be used to make software it then installs into itself.

EDIT: Alternately, as you describe yourself to be a "transhumanist", I assume you'd agree with the concept that a being can upgrade itself.

The flaw in the reasoning on this point is, I think, a flawed assumption that a thing that has no free will can never have free will, and conversely that something with free will will always have free will.

Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible

This conclusion does not follow.

Your preceding points show fairly well, I think, that a "perfectly moral" being could not have free will.

However to go from that point to make a conclusion of "God is not Moral" you would need to prove that God had Free Will.

Since your argument's whole stated point was to show God had no Free Will, then you are in fact seeking to do the opposite of what you would need to do to prove your conclusion.

"God is Impossible" does not follow from anything shown above. And furthermore would contradict the first part of the stated conclusion.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm unaware of "God has free will" being a teaching of classical monotheism. Who is generally assuming this? I'd be interested in seeing some references from theologians in the Abrahamic religions.

I don't know, never consider the idea before. I just assumed it to be the case but don't recall it being discussed in my Christian upbringing. I'd think it's a more important consideration among the Abrahamic beliefs and was wondering if God having free will was part of any religious doctrine.

 

[Sleeppy]

I'm unaware of "God has free will" being a teaching of classical monotheism. Who is generally assuming this? I'd be interested in seeing some references from theologians in the Abrahamic religions.

According to Judaism/Torah, Moses causes God to repent.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's generally assumed that a God would have free will, but is it actually necessary?

I suppose it goes along with the assumption of God being omnipotent. However these are assumptions by various religious ideologies. Are the assumptions necessary?

It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.

1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html

If God exists the anthropomorphic concept of Free Will would not be relevant. Even at the human level the existence of Free Will ranges from an illusion to limited compatabalism. The concept of will is a human concept as our nature. As with humans judgments God would not be moral nor amoral, nor perfect, God would simply exist beyond human judgments as to the nature of God.

Though it is a reasonable argument that the Biblical God(s) does not exist.

 

[WalterTrull]

If God exists the anthropomorphic concept of Free Will would not be relevant. Even at the human level the existence of Free Will ranges from an illusion to limited compatabalism. The concept of will is human concept as our nature. As with humans judgments God would not be moral nor amoral, nor perfect, God would simply exist beyond human judgments as to the nature of God.

Yup. Kinda like God is the 'puter and we're the coders.

 

[1213]

...
It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.

1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html

I think that is wrong idea. If God has free will, He can choose to be moral, He can choose to be perfect, He can choose whatever He wants. And by what I see, He has chosen to be good, by His own free will.

 

[Jumi]

I think free will is quite badly defined in general. In my opinion people make lots of assumptions on what it means.

1. It would be quite limiting if we knew everything and everything that would happen if we chose some route. I don't think people usually consider this in depth.
2. Perfection combined with perfect knowledge would certainly make things bland.

...

6. At least the type he is imagining is...

 

[Nakosis]

I think that is wrong idea. If God has free will, He can choose to be moral, He can choose to be perfect, He can choose whatever He wants. And by what I see, He has chosen to be good, by His own free will.

So God could choose to be immoral, imperfect, evil?

So any of God's actions towards man could be immoral? At anytime, anypoint?

I suppose we'd have to assume with free will, God would have the same capacity for evil as man.

 

[Apologes]

So God could choose to be immoral, imperfect, evil?

So any of God's actions towards man could be immoral? At anytime, anypoint?

I suppose we'd have to assume with free will, God would have the same capacity for evil as man.

Some would say that God being the most holy is such, not because He cannot do evil, but because He never chooses to.

Seriously, though, only the first argument seems to have some force behind it. The rest are just based on misunderstandings of what most theists tend to believe about God or just addressing irrelevant versions of theism.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think that is wrong idea. If God has free will, He can choose to be moral, He can choose to be perfect, He can choose whatever He wants. And by what I see, He has chosen to be good, by His own free will.

This portrays God as rather anthropomorhic Divine ruler of our physical existence as you would describe a King in our world, and that does not really work for a God.

 

[Apologes]

This portrays God as rather anthropomorhic Divine ruler of our physical existence as you would describe a King in our world, and that does not really work for a God.

Nothing antropomorphic about God having free will. I see you constantly call a lot of theistic beliefs anthropomorphic, yet you never really present any more plausible alternatives. If any concept that we're aware of being attributed to God somehow makes God anthropomorphic, then what are you left with?

 

[shunyadragon]

Nothing antropomorphic about God having free will. I see you constantly call a lot of theistic beliefs anthropomorphic, yet you never really present any more plausible alternatives. If any concept that we're aware of being attributed to God somehow makes God anthropomorphic, then what are you left with?

The anthropomorphic God is based on the ancient scripture and mythology of the Bible, which is a very fallible human view of God.

I believe i the knowable apophatic God of the Baha'i Faith comparable to the unknowable Tao. We know God only by the spiritual attributes of God in the Revelations, such as Love, Justice, Compassion, and Wisdom. God is not a He, nor a We.

Human attempts to describe or define God in the positive sense (cataphatic) will always fall short as a fallible human view that separates themselves from others that believe differently, and to a degre speartes themselves from God.

 

[Apologes]

The anthropomorphic God is based on the ancient scripture and mythology of the Bible, which is a very fallible human view of God.

I believe i the knowable apophatic God of the Baha'i Faith comparable to the unknowable Tao. We know God only by the spiritual attributes of God in the Revelations, such as Love, Justice, Compassion, and Wisdom. God is not a He, nor a We.

Human attempts to describe or define God in the positive sense (cataphatic) will always fall short as a fallible human view that separates themselves from others that believe differently, and to a degre speartes themselves from God.

The views which we're talking about here are those of classical theists which need not even be religious, let alone biblical. Regardless, I am very unimpressed by your description of "spiritual attributes" as this is really just playing a semantic game in which you define concepts that you don't like as anthropomorphic and all too human while taking those that you find fitting and call them "spiritual" even though there is no real reason given for why things like love and justice are not anthropomorphic (we hardly ever use these terms without reference to humans) while the concept like freedom of the will somehow is.

If anything, free will does better in this case as it need not even be a thing that humans actually possess and can be at least conceived in an objective manner unlike things like love and justice which may well (for many at least) boil down to mere subjective preferences. I could understand your rejection of the "anthropomorphic" God if you held to some sort of Kantian being which is so transcendent that human beings cannot even talk meaningfully about it, but since you seem to reject that God as well, your view strikes me as guilty of cherry-picking if not incoherence since you seem to dislike positive descriptions of God, yet you do precisely that by ascribing him attributes like love and justice.

 

[Nakosis]

That doesn't make sense. Knowledge does not restrict choice.

If you knew what you were going to choose ahead of time, how could you choose something else?

These arguments make more sense, to a point. A being that is "perfectly moral" will always act in a moral manner. Therefore a "perfectly moral" being will not act in an immoral manner, in a sense, cannot do so.

Of course this being would still have choice if there is more than one equally moral option for action. But presupposing there is only one option that has greater morality than any other option for any given situation then that being, by its nature, would have no choice but to do the most moral option at any given moment.

All this also, of course, assuming that God can be described as perfectly moral.

And also, of course, assuming there is an objective standard for morality.

Yes I think this generally assume specific traits about the Abrahamic God. I just never questioned the idea of God not having free will before. I was kind of wondering if Christians, Muslims or Jews would see God having free will as a necessity.

Free will is tied to time?? That needs to be shown.

Time as I see it is just a measure of change. If nothing changes, how could will be involved? Unless it's a matter of God constantly willing nothing to change. Then it's kind of weird because without God's willing it, would things start to change on their own?

Obviously, if we are to assume free will is a "created thing", then before the moment of "free will's" creation, nothing can have free will.

However, once "free will" is created, there is no reason in this theoretical scenario that the entity that created free will could not then give itself "free will". Like how a computer could be used to make software it then installs into itself.

Many see free will as an impossibility anyway, perhaps some of this begs the question.

EDIT: Alternately, as you describe yourself to be a "transhumanist", I assume you'd agree with the concept that a being can upgrade itself.

I suppose so if free will could be defined in a sensical way.

The flaw in the reasoning on this point is, I think, a flawed assumption that a thing that has no free will can never have free will, and conversely that something with free will will always have free will.

This conclusion does not follow.

Your preceding points show fairly well, I think, that a "perfectly moral" being could not have free will.

However to go from that point to make a conclusion of "God is not Moral" you would need to prove that God had Free Will.

Since your argument's whole stated point was to show God had no Free Will, then you are in fact seeking to do the opposite of what you would need to do to prove your conclusion.

"God is Impossible" does not follow from anything shown above. And furthermore would contradict the first part of the stated conclusion.

The arguments do try to disprove a specific idea of God. Of course what's being disproved could be a strawman.

Anyway the point was really to disprove God. It was more to show some problems associated with the concept of God possessing free will. And, really is it even necessary for God to possess free will.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's generally assumed that a God would have free will, but is it actually necessary?

I suppose it goes along with the assumption of God being omnipotent. However these are assumptions by various religious ideologies. Are the assumptions necessary?

It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.

1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html

Is that like the koan, can god create a rock to heavy for him to life?

God has free will or freedom to do/the will whatever "he" wants. Its people who limit him-is he all, is he human, is he nature, can he write, can he talk, and so forth. Without people, who is it that has free will or no free will?