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God Has No Free Will?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
We're starting with your propositions; answer the questions.
Well, you don't want to use logic, you want to debate your opinions. Fine, let's do that. Please answer the questions would have been the proper way to approach the issue. Orders suck, and since I don't have to take them anymore, I tend to ignore them. Let's be civil.

To your questions.
1) yes, freewill exists
2) yes, omnipotence exists
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Certain choices are no-brainers-even though they may actually require that which is similar to the function of a brain.

You might choose not to eat, for example, but not if you want to continue living.

An eternal God would not have been able to choose its own initial existence/development (if that were the case), but being able to make choices does give free will.
It's just that some choices are not optional -and some choices are optimal.
If God was alone, then an obvious decision would be to self-replicate/reproduce -and there is good reason because existence is worth sharing and sharing makes existence exponentially more enjoyable and worthwhile -as long as it is "done right".

Doing things right essentially means going with the choice which is logically not optional -and is optimal -even though we do have the option.

The fact that humans do not do so is evidence of our free will -we mess stuff up all over the place -but if we always did so, we would still have free will because we did so willingly.

The advantage to free will is creativity -which allows for life to be awesome, joyous and beautiful -applied to choices which are optional.

That which is not optional is that which allows for the optional.
If we do not accept the "no-brainers" we diminish our freedom and opportunity to be creative and have a worthwhile existence.

However, we are new beings -and are just learning the difference.

So, free will is simply the capacity to choose, not necessarily the capacity to choose freely?

Then I suppose what I'm really asking is does God need to have the capacity to choose freely. Can God choose to do evil, or make illogical choices?

It's like the debate on determinism but on the level of God. If you already feel you can make choices independent of causality, then I think people would generally grant this ability to their creator. However I guess I'm really asking is it/was it necessary for God to act independent of causality?

Or is it possible that God could be a "victim" of causality and still be the creator?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Claiming "God has no free will"
Would be good to define "Free Will" first [most humans see it as "Free Desire/Choice", I see it as "Will Power" to follow Satya and Dharma]

Sorry, I agree. I should have phrased it better. What I'm asking is, is it necessary for God, as creator to have the capacity to act independent of causality?

Would be good to define "God" first

Whatever "intelligent" force you feel created the universe.

If God is defined as have all these "omni's" plus "being beyond our comprehension" plus ...
Then it's obvious the writer is in "third" dimension (max.) and God is in "omni" dimension
How can anyone in third dimension ever judge about something so much higher
[It is possible if the person has a big ego, a lot of ignorance and plenty of arrogance]

I read the article, and it totally makes no sense to me. The person is fully immersed in duality trying to understand and define non-duality [God]

Silence is the only answer to get out of this duality IMHO. The mind and even science can never understand which is beyond the mind.

Fair enough. However I'm just wonder if this ability to act independent of causality is a necessary trait for God. Mostly because if not, this opens up some more naturalistic possibilities of the concept of God.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You presuppose that God's primary purpose at this point in time is to aleve you of your suffering.
I assume that because of the 'benevolent' billing, which claims an active concern about the wellbeing of humans, or at least believers. If you're saying benevolence is excluded, then I won't refer to it further in this discussion. (Meanwhile I'll feel free to.)
Everything that God does, and everything that exists, including you, exists within the framework of eternity.
So what? A benevolent god should be active in the here-and-now, not later when it won't matter. Besides, as I understand it, humans are required to perform in the here-and-now, later being too late, so God should lead by example.
Omnipotence, and proposed omniscience are attributes, but they cannot affect character.
I'm not so sure. Omnipotence would certainly test my character, and I'm told I'm made in God's image; and if I were omniscient, that would give me an understanding guaranteed to change my character.
Since I reject omniscience lets look at omnipotence. Gods character is such that he cannot be or create evil, therefore his omnipotence cannot change Gods character.
So you reject Isaiah 45:7? But where else can evil come from if there's only one God, only one Creator?
I am very wary of out of context Biblical quotes. As an example, I can prove to you that God approves of smoking, how ? well the Bibles says Abraham lit off a camel.
It does? I guess surviving a hit by Zeus' thunderbolt would be a Lucky Strike ... But Isaiah isn't a misquote, and I'm not misrepresenting its context. It's just an acknowledgement of monotheism. There are other examples as well:

1 Samuel 16:14: Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Amos 3:6: Is a trumpet blown in a city and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city unless the LORD has done it?
And there are at least five examples of God telling or arranging lies and deceits. Let me know if you're not aware of them.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
you listed six....or did I miscount?

anyway....the limit of God's freewill is the creation itself

the creation must have integrity to be real
tweaking a few molecules for evolution is one thing

shifting the properties of elements is something else

no stone to bread

No supernatural miracles?

Sorry for not being clear in the OP. The question really is, is it necessary for "God" to have the ability to act independent of causality?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Sorry, I agree. I should have phrased it better. What I'm asking is, is it necessary for God, as creator to have the capacity to act independent of causality?

Whatever "intelligent" force you feel created the universe.

Fair enough. However I'm just wonder if this ability to act independent of causality is a necessary trait for God. Mostly because if not, this opens up some more naturalistic possibilities of the concept of God.

I read the homepage link of yours. First time reading about "school of Greek philosophers called cynics". I don't like cynicism/sarcasm etc. at all, but what was described in your wiki link I like very much. The first 3 lines were what I also believe. Thanks, nice discovery.

You said: What I'm asking is, is it necessary for God, as creator to have the capacity to act independent of causality?
According to your[I like this] definition of "God" = "Whatever "intelligent" force you feel created the universe." I would say it is needed when "God" started to create the universe. Once it's running and "creating process was perfect" then it's not necessary to have this capacity I would say. Only needed when all is decreated and needs to be created again.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It's generally assumed that a God would have free will, but is it actually necessary?

I suppose it goes along with the assumption of God being omnipotent. However these are assumptions by various religious ideologies. Are the assumptions necessary?

It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.
  1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
  2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
  3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
  4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
  5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
  6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html


God is free to do as He pleases and what He pleases if for the greatest good and greatest purpose
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It's generally assumed that a God would have free will, but is it actually necessary?

I suppose it goes along with the assumption of God being omnipotent. However these are assumptions by various religious ideologies. Are the assumptions necessary?

It is known by four strong arguments that God cannot have free will, as other features and properties of God contradict the possibly of god being able to make choices.
  1. An Omniscient (all-knowing) Being Does Not Have Free Will
  2. A Perfect God Has No Free Will
  3. A Moral God Has No Free Will
  4. God Exists Outside of Time: Where There is No Free Will
  5. How Can the Creator of Free Will Have Free Will?
  6. Conclusion: God is Amoral, and, God is Impossible
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_has_no_free_will.html


God is free to do as He pleases and what He pleases if for the greatest good and greatest purpose
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I assume that because of the 'benevolent' billing, which claims an active concern about the wellbeing of humans, or at least believers. If you're saying benevolence is excluded, then I won't refer to it further in this discussion. (Meanwhile I'll feel free to.)
So what? A benevolent god should be active in the here-and-now, not later when it won't matter. Besides, as I understand it, humans are required to perform in the here-and-now, later being too late, so God should lead by example.
I'm not so sure. Omnipotence would certainly test my character, and I'm told I'm made in God's image; and if I were omniscient, that would give me an understanding guaranteed to change my character.
So you reject Isaiah 45:7? But where else can evil come from if there's only one God, only one Creator?
It does? I guess surviving a hit by Zeus' thunderbolt would be a Lucky Strike ... But Isaiah isn't a misquote, and I'm not misrepresenting its context. It's just an acknowledgement of monotheism. There are other examples as well:

1 Samuel 16:14: Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Amos 3:6: Is a trumpet blown in a city and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city unless the LORD has done it?
And there are at least five examples of God telling or arranging lies and deceits. Let me know if you're not aware of them.
Evil originated from Gods creation, he did not intend it, but because of free will it exists. In the active absence of God, there is evil. It ultimately comes from God as he created everything including the possibility of evil. If he withdraws from a person or city, the agents of evil fill the vacuum.

I am familiar with some of what you quote, but other than the fundamentals, I spend little time in the OT.

Feel free to refresh my memory.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
God is free to do as He pleases and what He pleases if for the greatest good and greatest purpose

Ok, but that's not exactly free in the sense of being free from causality if the cause for the action is the greatest good/greatest purpose. So God is no more freed from causality than the rest of us.

And, I'd suppose we wouldn't want God freed from causality cause then there'd be nothing stopping God from being an evil dictator.

Even the fundamentals of Christianity require causality in the sense that sin had to be paid for. God couldn't arbitrarily dismiss sin without payment for it right?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
So, free will is simply the capacity to choose, not necessarily the capacity to choose freely?

Then I suppose what I'm really asking is does God need to have the capacity to choose freely. Can God choose to do evil, or make illogical choices?

It's like the debate on determinism but on the level of God. If you already feel you can make choices independent of causality, then I think people would generally grant this ability to their creator. However I guess I'm really asking is it/was it necessary for God to act independent of causality?

Or is it possible that God could be a "victim" of causality and still be the creator?

Either God always existed as a complex creator, or God developed from a most basic nature. If God developed and was essentially everything eventually wrapping its head around itself, then God would be what naturally developed -developing the ability to decide the course of things. What was possible at any point would be dependent on a previous state until true decision developed to decide by will.

Either way, God could not have been the creator of his absolutely-most-basic nature -the stuff of which he is made and which is also used to create. He simply was or simply was and developed into that which could decide its own course by acknowledging and employing the absolute truth of his own nature -math, logic, etc. -upon which everything else is built.

Everything is possible -but only in the way that it is possible for the one who might will to do something.
We can't change water into wine because we are not able to interface on a "miraculous" level.
(Interesting note.... We have actually made gold from another element [alchemy] in a nuclear reactor by increasing our ability to interface on a different level)
It's a bit like having to rewind a tape but skipping songs on a CD.

The God of the bible is quoted as saying "I am accountable unto myself".
The adverse effects of our actions are sometimes not immediate - or (might not be the exact wording of the bible quote) "because justice is not executed quickly, the heart of a man is set in him to do evil".
If God developed from the most simple state possible, considering all things before applying a decision would have been an early lesson. In other words, not being perfect would have immediate undesirable consequences -which would be true even if he somehow always existed as a complex creator.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
If you knew what you were going to choose ahead of time, how could you choose something else?

Ah, that's the angle your going with. That makes more sense.

I don't think it works, though.

Like let's say I go grocery shopping with a list. In this scenario, I know what it is I am going to buy. Does that mean the choices I make at the store are not my choices because I knew beforehand what I would be purchasing??

We go through our lives spending a good portion thinking about what will happen in the future and what choices we will make in response to those things. But because we foretold our choices, does that make them stop being choices?? I don't think so.

Yes I think this generally assume specific traits about the Abrahamic God. I just never questioned the idea of God not having free will before. I was kind of wondering if Christians, Muslims or Jews would see God having free will as a necessity.

Well if we take your assumptions, then the description of God as "perfectly moral" does not contradict the notion that God has free will. Because in most Abrahamic systems the objective standard of morality is set by God.

IE, in such systems, God's actions are not dictated by morality, but rather morality is dictated by God's actions. Thus there is no restriction on this God's actions due to him being "moral", rather morality is simply a standard set by that being.

Time as I see it is just a measure of change. If nothing changes, how could will be involved? Unless it's a matter of God constantly willing nothing to change. Then it's kind of weird because without God's willing it, would things start to change on their own?

Time is not the only dimension of change, there are also the three dimensions of space. As you move from 0 to 10 on the X axis of a 2D plane, the Y position of a line can change.

Thus, I'll concede your argument makes sense here if we can assume that things end at four dimensions.

IE, perhaps there is a fifth dimension that God moves through in the same manner we move through time.

As we experience things through the perspective of time, we are not able to perceive anything, if it exists, above that fourth dimension.

A theoretical "fifth dimensional being", not even a god, mind you, just any being that could be described as outside of time, would be able to perceive time in the same manner as we perceive space, and would be able to alter that fourth dimension as they acted and moved along the fifth. To such a being time would just be another dimension of space, and the fifth dimension would seem to them like time does to us.

It would be a further dimension of change imperceptible to us.

I suppose so if free will could be defined in a sensical way.

If you don't have a working definition of the term, you aren't ready for a discussion on whether anything possesses that quality.

The arguments do try to disprove a specific idea of God. Of course what's being disproved could be a strawman.

Kind of. But, as you say, you don't know whether or not the Abrahamic idea of God even has the quality of free will. So you don't know that the idea of God you are trying to disprove is even an idea that anyone has.

Regardless, though, your conclusion stated at the end does not follow. And your stated conclusion at the begging of the six parts is different from, and contrary to, the conclusion provided at the end. For readability sake, you should make sure your conclusion matches the conclusion provided at the outset of the logical argument.

Furthermore, if you don't yet have, as you imply is the case, a definition of free will, then the whole argument above falls apart. If you can't say what free will even is you have no way of saying that the quality of free will contradicts any other quality.

Therefore a God could exist that has the qualities you describe, and free will. Until we've determined what "free will" is we can't say it contradicts another property.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Like let's say I go grocery shopping with a list. In this scenario, I know what it is I am going to buy. Does that mean the choices I make at the store are not my choices because I knew beforehand what I would be purchasing??
But in saying you "know" what it is you're going to buy doesn't leave any room for choosing at the grocery store. You're going to buy what you knew you're going to buy. UNLESS, that is, by "I know what it is I am going to buy" you simply mean, what you intend to buy, which of course isn't knowing.
Intentions ≠ knowing.

We go through our lives spending a good portion thinking about what will happen in the future and what choices we will make in response to those things. But because we foretold our choices, does that make them stop being choices??
No it doesn't, but it does make your choice inevitable, that is; conforming to what you foretold. Your choice HAS TO BE what you foretold. Unless, that is, your foretelling is on the fritz. Is your foretelling always 100% accurate?



Just as a side note
, choices are a figment of our imaginations. There are no such things. Everything we do is created by those casual influences that determine that doing.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So God could choose to be immoral, imperfect, evil?

So any of God's actions towards man could be immoral? At anytime, anypoint? ...

I believe He could choose that. But I believe He doesn’t want to do so and therefore He is good.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Well, you don't want to use logic, you want to debate your opinions. Fine, let's do that. Please answer the questions would have been the proper way to approach the issue. Orders suck, and since I don't have to take them anymore, I tend to ignore them. Let's be civil.

To your questions.
1) yes, freewill exists
2) yes, omnipotence exists

So, you're not using logic in your debates?

My questions were different.

1) WHAT IS free will?
2) WHAT IS omnipotence?

You understand that you have to make two propositions there, right? I'm also only suggesting that you answer them, not ordering you, as if I excercise any authority to do so.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evil originated from Gods creation, he did not intend it, but because of free will it exists. In the active absence of God, there is evil.
That can't be right. For instance, the Garden story in Genesis never mentions sin, disobedience, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, the need of redemption or anything of the kind. Not once, not anywhere. Nor is the serpent identified with Satan, nor does he tell any lies. Instead we're told the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden ─ lest they eat from the tree of life and become immortal (Genesis 3:22-23). And in Ezekiel 18 we're told very plainly and at length that sin can't be inherited. So generic sin is a later invention and contradicts scripture.
It ultimately comes from God as he created everything including the possibility of evil. If he withdraws from a person or city, the agents of evil fill the vacuum.
If it's God's creation, it can't be true that the absence of God = evil. Nor can life so created, 'red in tooth and claw' as Tennyson put it, be evil; rather, all must be exactly as God foresaw. The alternative which you propose is that God has willfully blinded [him]self so as to be subject to his own creation, time, hence is voluntarily neither omniscient nor omnipotent nor omnipresent nor perfect, nor even benevolent. So why, as Epicurus is said to have said, call [him] God?
I am familiar with some of what you quote, but other than the fundamentals, I spend little time in the OT.
I had these in mind. There may be more:

1 Kings 22: 23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”​

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

(However, you'll be familiar with the view of scholars that 2 Thessalonians is not by Paul but rather a pseudepigraph ie a ring-in / forgery.)
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So, you're not using logic in your debates?

My questions were different.

1) WHAT IS free will?
2) WHAT IS omnipotence?

You understand that you have to make two propositions there, right? I'm also only suggesting that you answer them, not ordering you, as if I excercise any authority to do so.
Free will is the ability to make critical choices, uh, freely. Omni, meaning many, all, potence meaning power

No, I can make a number of logical propositions from your questions, but questions cannot be used as propositions.

God exists, God can do whatever he chooses, therefore, God is omnipotent and has free will

God can do whatever he chooses, God will never choose to do evil, therefore, God cannot do evil

A few
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That can't be right. For instance, the Garden story in Genesis never mentions sin, disobedience, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, the need of redemption or anything of the kind. Not once, not anywhere. Nor is the serpent identified with Satan, nor does he tell any lies. Instead we're told the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden ─ lest they eat from the tree of life and become immortal (Genesis 3:22-23). And in Ezekiel 18 we're told very plainly and at length that sin can't be inherited. So generic sin is a later invention and contradicts scripture.
If it's God's creation, it can't be true that the absence of God = evil. Nor can life so created, 'red in tooth and claw' as Tennyson put it, be evil; rather, all must be exactly as God foresaw. The alternative which you propose is that God has willfully blinded [him]self so as to be subject to his own creation, time, hence is voluntarily neither omniscient nor omnipotent nor omnipresent nor perfect, nor even benevolent. So why, as Epicurus is said to have said, call [him] God?
I had these in mind. There may be more:

1 Kings 22: 23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”​

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

(However, you'll be familiar with the view of scholars that 2 Thessalonians is not by Paul but rather a pseudepigraph ie a ring-in / forgery.)
That can't be right. For instance, the Garden story in Genesis never mentions sin, disobedience, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, the need of redemption or anything of the kind. Not once, not anywhere. Nor is the serpent identified with Satan, nor does he tell any lies. Instead we're told the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden ─ lest they eat from the tree of life and become immortal (Genesis 3:22-23). And in Ezekiel 18 we're told very plainly and at length that sin can't be inherited. So generic sin is a later invention and contradicts scripture.
If it's God's creation, it can't be true that the absence of God = evil. Nor can life so created, 'red in tooth and claw' as Tennyson put it, be evil; rather, all must be exactly as God foresaw. The alternative which you propose is that God has willfully blinded [him]self so as to be subject to his own creation, time, hence is voluntarily neither omniscient nor omnipotent nor omnipresent nor perfect, nor even benevolent. So why, as Epicurus is said to have said, call [him] God?
I had these in mind. There may be more:

1 Kings 22: 23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”​

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

(However, you'll be familiar with the view of scholars that 2 Thessalonians is not by Paul but rather a pseudepigraph ie a ring-in / forgery.)
The Genesis account, at first doesn´t use the specific term sin, it uses disobedience. What was the result of disobedience ? among a number of other things, like death, was the knowledge of good and evil. sin. It specifically does declare the need of a redeemer. What do you think the bruising of heads and heels in the future is all about ?

Few scholars deny that Paul wrote 2 Thess. I will get back to you on your quotations, I will have to read them in context, thank you for them.

Satan is called the prince of this world. At the start of the book of Job, this is made clear. Because God creates something, it doesn´t mean he cannot withdraw from it. He can do whatever he chooses. itś called omnipotence
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Genesis account, at first doesn´t use the specific term sin, it uses disobedience.
Where does it say 'disobedience'?
What was the result of disobedience ?
In the Garden story? There was no disobedience. There couldn't be. Sin is a matter of intention, and Eve when she ate the fruit and Adam when he ate the fruit were each in a God-imposed state of not knowing good from evil. Therefore neither of them was capable of sin at the relevant time.
No, death was already in the world. This is unambiguous: the reason God kicked them out of the Garden was to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and becoming immortal. They were NOT already immortal. Death was already part of the system.
It specifically does declare the need of a redeemer. What do you think the bruising of heads and heels in the future is all about ?
About the relationship of humans and snakes. But as I said, the snake told no lies, and gaining humanity the knowledge of good and evil is an excellent thing, whatever God's view of it in the story.
Few scholars deny that Paul wrote 2 Thess.
I only mention it to be fair.
Satan is called the prince of this world. At the start of the book of Job, this is made clear. Because God creates something, it doesn´t mean he cannot withdraw from it. He can do whatever he chooses. itś called omnipotence
But if you're right about God blinding [him]self as to the future, then [he]'s no longer omnipotent.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Free will is the ability to make critical choices, uh, freely. Omni, meaning many, all, potence meaning power

No, I can make a number of logical propositions from your questions, but questions cannot be used as propositions.

God exists, God can do whatever he chooses, therefore, God is omnipotent and has free will

God can do whatever he chooses, God will never choose to do evil, therefore, God cannot do evil

A few

I never said questions were propositions. Your answers to them are, however.

1) Freely? As in, free from cause?
2) All? As in, all universal energy?
 
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