God Giveth, Man Taketh Away.

[Ellen Brown]

I think this is common to many/most religions, not just the ones I know something of.

When the recruiters, Missionaries, or what have you try to get you into their belief systems, they seem to dispense the forgiveness of God out like Cotton Candy.

Yet, once you have gotten to be a member, to them there are still multiple levels of repentance and contriteness, as if it is they and not God who dispenses it. That is far too cheeky for me.

 

[SomeRandom]

This is mainly an Abrahamic thing. For a God who's love is unconditional, He certainly has a lot of requirements. One might even say, "conditions."

 

[Tumah]

This is mainly an Abrahamic thing. For a God who's love is unconditional, He certainly has a lot of requirements. One might even say, "conditions."

Where does it say that G-d's Love is unconditional in Abrahamic religious texts?

 

[SomeRandom]

Where does it say that G-d's Love is unconditional in Abrahamic religious texts?

Hey, I'm only going by what has been preached at me.
Christians are always claiming that His love is unconditional. Are you saying all of those who tried to prostelyze to me over the years are all lying about God and their own religious texts?
Damn, that's some dedicated false advertisement right there. They weren't even from the same sect.

 

[Tumah]

Hey, I'm only going by what has been preached at me.
Christians are always claiming that His love is unconditional. Are you saying all of those who tried to prostelyze to me over the years are all lying about God and their own religious texts?
Damn, that's some dedicated false advertisement right there. They weren't even from the same sect.

I'm saying that Abrahamic religions is not a synonym for Christian sects.

 

[Glaurung]

Christians are always claiming that His love is unconditional.

Being loved by God is not the same thing as being assured salvation. Salvation is conditional on the freely made choice to cooperate with divine grace.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm saying that Abrahamic religions is not a synonym for Christian sects.

Of course not. Christians just happen to be the loudest representative. But you're right, I tend to equivocate the two because I'm used to having to constantly rely on that sort of useless shorthand in everyday life. Mea culpa.

 

[SomeRandom]

Being loved by God is not the same thing as being assured salvation. Salvation is conditional on the freely made choice to cooperate with divine grace.

Seems like a shot gun to the head kind of decision, though.
Cooperate or go to (Christian) hell.
That can easily be interpreted as an abusive relationship.

 

[Kenny]

Seems like a shot gun to the head kind of decision, though.
Cooperate or go to (Christian) hell.
That can easily be interpreted as an abusive relationship.

Yes... it is like every job I have had. They said "Get to work on time and do your job or you don't have a job". An abusive relationship

 

[Glaurung]

Seems like a shot gun to the head kind of decision, though.
Cooperate or go to (Christian) hell.
That can easily be interpreted as an abusive relationship.

Heaven, ultimately, is the experience of seeing God directly, of seeing God face to face. For a soul that has cooperated with divine grace this experience is one of incomprehensible and eternal happiness. But for a soul mired in unrepentant sin it is one of unbearable pain and terror. It would be like locking a person in a pitch black room for weeks on end and then suddenly exposing that said person to direct sunlight.

Hell is a mercy in that heaven would be all the worse for the aforementioned soul. It is not so much that God throws people into hell so much as that sin cuts us away from God. And if that is what a person ultimately wants, then that is what God will ultimately grant.

 

[Kenny]

I think this is common to many/most religions, not just the ones I know something of.

When the recruiters, Missionaries, or what have you try to get you into their belief systems, they seem to dispense the forgiveness of God out like Cotton Candy.

Yet, once you have gotten to be a member, to them there are still multiple levels of repentance and contriteness, as if it is they and not God who dispenses it. That is far too cheeky for me.

I'm not sure what your application is... I'm sure there are abuses.

But could it also be, "mercy and forgiveness is abounding but we should grow up" and that requires repentance?

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes... it is like every job I have had. They said "Get to work on time and do your job or you don't have a job". An abusive relationship

Last time I checked your punishment for refusing to work wasn't an eternity in hell being literally tortured (according to some Christian sects.) They might dock your pay or tell you find another job. But that's called a transaction where I'm from. Not remotely in the same ball park.

 

[SomeRandom]

Heaven, ultimately, is the experience of seeing God directly, of seeing God face to face. For a soul that has cooperated with divine grace this experience is one of incomprehensible and eternal happiness. But for a soul mired in unrepentant sin it is one of unbearable pain and terror. It would be like locking a person in a pitch black room for weeks on end and then suddenly exposing that said person to direct sunlight.

Hell is a mercy in that heaven would be all the worse for the aforementioned soul. It is not so much that God throws people into hell so much as that sin cuts us away from God. And if that is what a person ultimately wants, then that is what God will ultimately grant.

Or the infinite being that is God could simply cleanse the soul or I dunno put the "bad ones" in time out or something. Hell is a little drastic.

 

[Kenny]

Last time I checked your punishment for refusing to work wasn't an eternity in hell being literally tortured (according to some Christian sects.) They might dock your pay or tell you find another job. But that's called a transaction where I'm from. Not remotely in the same ball park.

So, when your dad says "don't play with fire" - It's his fault you get burned... got i!

When your dad says "don't steal" and you go to jail for stealing... it's your dad's fault... got it

 

[Windwalker]

Yes... it is like every job I have had. They said "Get to work on time and do your job or you don't have a job". An abusive relationship

There is a problem with this. One, you are not being offered unconditional employment by the employer. You are being offered unconditional love by God. Two, to equate the two makes salvation dependent upon "job performance". This is a flat contradiction to the entire teachings of the New Testament, which says that it is "freely given", not conditionally dependent upon job performance, or a "salvation of works".

A better analogy is you are being offered free food. The only thing you have to do, is take it from the table and eat it for yourself. No more complex than that. No magic formulas or beliefs. Just eating, or denying yourself the food which is already yours for the taking.

 

[Kenny]

There is a problem with this. One, you are not being offered unconditional employment by the employer. You are being offered unconditional love by God. Two, to equate the two makes salvation dependent upon "job performance". This is a flat contradiction to the entire teachings of the New Testament, which says that it is "freely given", not conditionally dependent upon job performance, or a "salvation of works".

A better analogy is you are being offered free food. The only thing you have to do, is take it from the table and eat it for yourself. No more complex than that. No magic formulas or beliefs. Just eating, or denying yourself the food which is already yours for the taking.

True... my example was just satirical in nature. Yours is much better.

 

[SomeRandom]

So, when your dad says "don't play with fire" - It's his fault you get burned... got i!

When your dad says "don't steal" and you go to jail for stealing... it's your dad's fault... got it

Again jail isn't eternal. A burn will heal. Hell is eternity, hardly a fair punishment for being the human He created me as.
If God created humanity and He is perfect, then it stands to reason He could have easily programmed out our flaws from the start. If one is to take creation literally, of course.

 

[Glaurung]

Or the infinite being that is God could simply cleanse the soul or I dunno put the "bad ones" in time out or something. Hell is a little drastic.

That would not only render human freedom meaningless, it would be unjust.

 

[Kenny]

Again jail isn't eternal. A burn will heal. Hell is eternity, hardly a fair punishment for being the human He created me as.
If God created humanity and He is perfect, then it stands to reason He could have easily programmed out our flaws from the start. If one is to take creation literally, of course.

I think the logic here is flawed.

The only way God could programmed free will out of Adam from the start is to make a robot. When is love a forced proposition? Hell wasn't created for man.

 

[SomeRandom]

That would not only render human freedom meaningless, it would be unjust.

Why?
Why would it be unjust? What if a person was Mother freaking Theresa and still went to hell simply for not accepting God or Jesus? Is that justice? If so, does that mean refusing to have fealty is tantamount to treason? If so, why? Why would an all powerful being have an ego like a human?
Why would human freedom be meaningless if God took the route to mete out punishment appropriate to a human's understanding?

So many questions so little time.