God Giveth, Man Taketh Away.

[SomeRandom]

I think the logic here is flawed.

The only way God could programmed free will out of Adam from the start is to make a robot. When is love a forced proposition? Hell wasn't created for man.

Well if you're going to say, you will go to hell if you don't love me, that's kind of forcing your hand.
And God could have given Adam free will and still have him not be flawed. I mean God is all powerful, right? Are you saying that is not within His power to create perfect beings with free will?Hell within our lifetimes we will probably see literal robots with free will, if AI gets sophisticated enough. And we're lowly humans creating them.

And if Hell wasn't created for humans, why toss them there in the first place? Why not create something for humans to learn their lesson properly?
It seems so final and not within a human's true capacity to truly understand eternal punishment that it seems cruel and unusual. Why would an all powerful being not stoop down to truly understand how to get through to humans on their level? Are we just ants to Him?

Oh geez, I think I'm having an existential freak out.

 

[Kenny]

Well if you're going to say, you will go to hell if you don't love me, that's kind of forcing your hand.

Where did He say that?

And God could have given Adam free will and still have him not be flawed. I mean God is all powerful, right? Are you saying that is not within His power to create perfect beings with free will?

He wasn't flawed. Adam was perfect. But decided to make a wrong decision.

And if Hell wasn't created for humans, why toss them there in the first place? Why not create something for humans to learn their lesson properly? Hell within our lifetimes we will probably see literal robots with free will, if AI gets sophisticated enough. And we're lowly humans creating them.

He doesn't "toss them there" no more than somebody "tosses you into a new home". You go where you decide to live.

It seems so final and not within a human's true capacity to truly understand eternal punishment that it seems cruel and unusual. Why would an all powerful being not stoop down to truly understand how to get through to humans on their level? Are we just ants to Him?

He did stoop down and came down on our level. I believe it goes like this.
"He (Jesus) had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion."

Oh geez, I think I'm having an existential freak out.

Take a Jesus chill pill

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think this is common to many/most religions, not just the ones I know something of.

When the recruiters, Missionaries, or what have you try to get you into their belief systems, they seem to dispense the forgiveness of God out like Cotton Candy.

Yet, once you have gotten to be a member, to them there are still multiple levels of repentance and contriteness, as if it is they and not God who dispenses it. That is far too cheeky for me.

I can honestly say it's not all abrahamic. The Buddhist sect I used to practice, Nichiren, is an actual buddhist school to which followers believe the monk Nichiren Shonin has modern insight to Suffering by chanting and devotion oneself to karma.

Nichiren Shoshu has a very very direct evangelization that any other school and sect you follow is not "True Buddhism". As a result, members are coerced to believe or for me I just left cold turkey. A lot it has to do with politics. It is highly individual and in christianity based on the denomination.

That's the worst I ever came into contact with fundamentalist is the school above. I was lucky to be on a christian environment whose beliefs only affect me insofar the study and theology goes but not the interaction with christians themselves.

 

[SomeRandom]

Where did He say that?

I don't know. Christians say it to me all the time though.

He wasn't flawed. Adam was perfect. But decided to make a wrong decision.

If Adam wasn't flawed, why'd he make the wrong decision? Isn't that a flaw?

You know you guys give Zen Bhuddists a run for their money. I really have to admire that.

He did stoop down and came down on our level. I believe it goes like this.
"He (Jesus) had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion."

But how does that help humans to understand the true implications of eternal consequences?
A teacher doesn't send a disobedient child to jail. The consequences are appropriate to the crime and even based on age to some extent. Why does God have these absolutes? Is He a Sith Lord?
I suppose at least Dante's version of Hell is somewhat more crime appropriate.

Take a Jesus chill pill

 

[Kenny]

I don't know. Christians say it to me all the time though.

You can find people saying anything... but it is much better to read it for yourself.

I remember saying "Everybody interprets the Bible differently!" Until I read it for myself. So much of it is black and white.

If Adam wasn't flawed, why'd he make the wrong decision? Isn't that a flaw?

You know you guys give Zen Bhuddists a run for their money. I really have to admire that.

Hardly. It is called "free will". Freedom does have it's dangers. And you don't have to be flawless to do it too. I remember knowing that smoking was bad for you. Did that stop me? Nope! Until I decided to make the right decision

But how does that help humans to understand the true implications of eternal consequences?

I'm not sure why one must understand "eternal consequences". Just understand that there is a consequence should be enough, shouldn't it? Even 10 years in jail should be enough to say "It ain't worth it". IMV.

A teacher doesn't send a disobedient child to jail. The consequences are appropriate to the crime and even based on age to some extent. Why does God have these absolutes?

But judges do if it is appropriate to the crime.

What about this absolute? "You are heading in the wrong direction and every day you add more sins to the list. HOWEVER, that doesn't matter. I love you and forgive you. Just turn around so that you stop heading in that direction and be my wife (church is considered to be the woman), and everything I have is yours. If you do that, they even when you continue to miss the mark, it won't matter, I will still receive you.

I like that absolute.

Is He a Sith Lord?

No.. .that's Satan!

I suppose at least Dante's version of Hell is somewhat more crime appropriate.

I rather just miss Hell in its entirety

 

[Glaurung]

Why would it be unjust? What if a person was Mother freaking Theresa and still went to hell simply for not accepting God or Jesus? Is that justice? If so, does that mean refusing to have fealty is tantamount to treason?

You are changing the question. God desires that salvation be accepted, that He be sought by His creatures. Simply imposing a universal regeneration by divine fiat would render the very point of this life moot. The choice for or against God is the very reason we are here. Now as to this new question, to reject Christ is to reject the truth. John 14:6

To reject the Gospel either because one finds the moral law inconvenient or because God as revealed within isn't God as one would prefer Him is to reject the means of salvation. How can one spend eternity in the direct presence of the god one rejects? It is therefore perfectly just that those in rebellion against their final end are barred from enjoying that end.

Does that mean that those who have not had fair access to the Gospel are without hope? No. Quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

No one goes to hell unless they choose it. Saint Faustina, who was given glimpses of both heaven and hell writes:

"I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy, only the soul that wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one" (Diary, 1452).

God is just, there is nothing He has overlooked. Thus for myself, I will continue to trust that God knows what He is doing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think this is common to many/most religions, not just the ones I know something of.

When the recruiters, Missionaries, or what have you try to get you into their belief systems, they seem to dispense the forgiveness of God out like Cotton Candy.

Yet, once you have gotten to be a member, to them there are still multiple levels of repentance and contriteness, as if it is they and not God who dispenses it. That is far too cheeky for me.

Not to detract from your post in any way whatsoever, I just want to post an FYI. The actual quote is:
"The LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21 It is spoken by a man a named Job who is blessing God even after he has lost his wife and children, his land and flocks, and his health--he essentially has nothing left except the life he clings to, yet he will not curse God.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Not to detract from your post in any way whatsoever, I just want to post an FYI. The actual quote is:
"The LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21 It is spoken by a man a named Job who is blessing God even after he has lost his wife and children, his land and flocks, and his health--he essentially has nothing left except the life he clings to, yet he will not curse God.

I knew this. I was just trying to be snarky and snotty and cynical.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I knew this. I was just trying to be snarky and snotty and cynical.

LOL Oh, okay, my friend. Love ya!