God clearly wants us confused

[gnostic]

Jesus brought truth---Catholicism added false teachings at their councils--they were never corrected until the JW teachers corrected them. I don't attack--I speak--FACT. If the world cannot face--FACT--they do not belong here.

And yet, only accept JW adherents accept such corrections, while the rest of believers, not just Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants and Jews don't accept such corrections, as each have their own teachings.

The question is what make JW corrections have more authority than that of other Christian sects?

 

[Kenny]

As I've tried to point out on several occasions now my use of the term 'whispered into the ears' was used more to support my analogy of the children's game telephone than to insist that the message was received via ears. It really doesn't matter if God literally spoke the Word or magically transmitted it directly into someone's brain, my point is that providing this information to an ancient shepherd in one small corner of the world is an extremely ineffective means of communicating that message in tact. If it WAS an effective method we wouldn't literally have thousands of different religions in the world, all providing equally verifiable evidence for their legitimacy. Furthermore you wouldn't have thousands of different interpretations of God's Word within a single religion.

I find your points illogical. It is very clear, clearly stated, unequivocally detailed that we should not murder. No "whispered into the ears" but rather declared from the rooftops. Yet we have unfettered murders and people who would like to redefine what it is.

What we have is people... not a God who wasn't clear.

 

[Kenny]

We are even then.

-- But I'm still right!

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

-- But I'm still right!

Alrighty then.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I find your points illogical. It is very clear, clearly stated, unequivocally detailed that we should not murder. No "whispered into the ears" but rather declared from the rooftops. Yet we have unfettered murders and people who would like to redefine what it is.

What we have is people... not a God who wasn't clear.

I guess I'm not terribly surprised that you can't follow my simple logic. After all you consider God telling a single individual in one small corner of the world His Word and expecting it then be passed on in tact for thousands of years to billions of people to be 'declaring his Word from the rooftops!' That it about as OPPOSITE of declaring His Word from the rooftops as you can get. That's being lazy and playing the game of telephone where he has one generation pass His Word onto the next generation for centuries so that it becomes so terribly garbled that there are thousands of different religions and thousands of different sects within each religion. Why, we even have debate forums like this where people argue endlessly about which words really ARE God's Words or how we were intended to interpret those Words that people happen to agree on.

Let's take one of God's rules, for instance Thou Shalt Not Kill. You'd THINK it was pretty clear and straight forward, right? But no, there appear to be all sorts of exceptions to the rule. Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course your wife cheats on you, then surely she shall be put to death! Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course we're talking about disobedient children, because then surely they shall be out to death! Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course you happen to be a Canaanite, because then God wants you to slaughter them all, men women and children alike.

If people are confused it's because the source material is so very confusing. And for thousands of years the author of the material has made absolutely no attempt to clarify His Word, even when his children are starting bloody wars because they can't agree on what God wants from them. This God is like a father who has billions of children over thousands of years. He claims to have a VERY important rules that he wants ALL of His children to follow. But instead of teaching them individually what the rules are He decided to just inform His first born and left it to him/her to pass on the rules to all of his/her siblings. Unfortunately for those later siblings the first born died ages ago. The good news is that the first born scribbled some notes. The bad news is that the first born wrote the notes in a language no one has spoken for millennia and the notes have been translated and re-translated by later siblings numerous times. Now, thousands of years later when His children are completely confused about what the rules are, you're saying that God is not in any way at fault for using such an ineffective method of communication, but rather it's the children's fault for... for what exactly?

 

[Kenny]

I guess I'm not terribly surprised that you can't follow my simple logic.

As surprised as "questioning mind" has no questions. Wondering who can't follow here. I hope this doesn't get downgraded to simple no-need-to-use-brains insulting remarks.

After all you consider God telling a single individual in one small corner of the world His Word and expecting it then be passed on in tact for thousands of years to billions of people to be 'declaring his Word from the rooftops!' That it about as OPPOSITE of declaring His Word from the rooftops as you can get. That's being lazy and playing the game of telephone where he has one generation pass His Word onto the next generation for centuries so that it becomes so terribly garbled that there are thousands of different religions and thousands of different sects within each religion. Why, we even have debate forums like this where people argue endlessly about which words really ARE God's Words or how we were intended to interpret those Words that people happen to agree on.

You mention the telephone game for "thousands of years". Do you know what methods they used to reprint what was written?

Let's take one of God's rules, for instance Thou Shalt Not Kill. You'd THINK it was pretty clear and straight forward, right? But no, there appear to be all sorts of exceptions to the rule. Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course your wife cheats on you, then surely she shall be put to death! Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course we're talking about disobedient children, because then surely they shall be out to death! Thou Shalt Not Kill... unless of course you happen to be a Canaanite, because then God wants you to slaughter them all, men women and children alike.

I wonder if you studied the Hebrew scriptures. Was the English version of "kill" translated right? What is the context? What was the lifestyle of the Canaanite's?

Which then begs the question... Would you support the Japanese continued style of "rape of Nanking" or would you do something about it?

If people are confused it's because the source material is so very confusing.

I would say it is because you never asked the question.

And for thousands of years the author of the material has made absolutely no attempt to clarify His Word, even when his children are starting bloody wars because they can't agree on what God wants from them.

I disagree... Jesus came and clarified it very simply and succinctly!

 

[QuestioningMind]

As surprised as "questioning mind" has no questions. Wondering who can't follow here. I hope this doesn't get downgraded to simple no-need-to-use-brains insulting remarks.


"You mention the telephone game for "thousands of years". Do you know what methods they used to reprint what was written?"

I assume you mean the Hebrew texts and I confess that I'm not intimately familiar with the methods used, but your next post pretty much makes the methods used a moot point.

"I wonder if you studied the Hebrew scriptures. Was the English version of "kill" translated right? What is the context? What was the lifestyle of the Canaanite's?"

And that's pretty much the crux of my entire post. Who cares how meticulously the Hebrew texts were reproduced when a mistranslated word by an English translator means that for the vast majority of Christians who only read English one of the Ten Commandments is apparently wrong. And how many other such words have been translated incorrectly? How effective a method of communication did God choose if the vast majority of English speaking Christians have misinterpreted what the word 'kill' means in His list of 10 commandments? Oh, and by the way, what is the TRUE interpretation that means you shouldn't take another human life UNLESS it's a cheating spouse, disobedient child, or a Canaanite?

"Which then begs the question... Would you support the Japanese continued style of "rape of Nanking" or would you do something about it?"

I definitely believe that steps should be taken to stop atrocities such as those perpetrated by Japan during WWII. Your response begs the question, so do you think the action we should have taken in response to the 'Rape of Nanking' would have been to slaughter every single Japanese man, woman, and CHILD? Personally I think such a vile response would have been far MORE horrendous than any atrocities the Japanese perpetrated during the war. If we HAD exterminated the entire Japanese race after the war the world would view us as genocidal monsters... and they would be 100% correct.

"I disagree... Jesus came and clarified it very simply and succinctly!"

Sure, he clarified enough so that today we have thousands of different Christian sects who can't seem to agree on exactly what Jesus was trying to convey. Why, he clarified it so well that millions of people died in Europe fighting over who had interpreted Jesus's words correctly. He clarified it so well that millions of people today believe that Jesus came and visited America, because just as God spoke to Moses thousands of years ago, He ALSO spoke to Joseph Smith just about a century and a half ago. Why he clarified so well that we have websites like this one where all people do is argue over who/what God is and what this God wants from us.

What a shame we weren't the 'first born' so we could have gotten the message directly, instead of having to rely on thousands of years of translation and of course those pesky mistranslated parts to get the message. I just wish this all powerful all knowing God were a better communicator. It certainly would eliminate a great deal of suffering and strife in the world.

 

[Kenny]

"You mention the telephone game for "thousands of years". Do you know what methods they used to reprint what was written?"

I assume you mean the Hebrew texts and I confess that I'm not intimately familiar with the methods used, but your next post pretty much makes the methods used a moot point.

I disagree. The process was detailed enough to find consistency. In fact, scriptures that are1000 years apart still are accurate. THE PRISTINE TRUTH: Reliability of the Old Testament Text

"I wonder if you studied the Hebrew scriptures. Was the English version of "kill" translated right? What is the context? What was the lifestyle of the Canaanite's?"

And that's pretty much the crux of my entire post. Who cares how meticulously the Hebrew texts were reproduced when a mistranslated word by an English translator means that for the vast majority of Christians who only read English one of the Ten Commandments is apparently wrong.

I guess you would have to study to find out. Certainly getting facts and understanding before commenting is a good thing. No... no other words in the Ten Commandments are wrong. The word should have been translated "murder".

And how many other such words have been translated incorrectly? How effective a method of communication did God choose if the vast majority of English speaking Christians have misinterpreted what the word 'kill' means in His list of 10 commandments? Oh, and by the way, what is the TRUE interpretation that means you shouldn't take another human life UNLESS it's a cheating spouse, disobedient child, or a Canaanite?

You are talking about BC and about Jewish Law so please don't make confuse the two Last will and Testaments. For Christians, the Cross has eradicated some of the things that you are mentioning.

"Which then begs the question... Would you support the Japanese continued style of "rape of Nanking" or would you do something about it?"

I definitely believe that steps should be taken to stop atrocities such as those perpetrated by Japan during WWII. Your response begs the question, so do you think the action we should have taken in response to the 'Rape of Nanking' would have been to slaughter every single Japanese man, woman, and CHILD? Personally I think such a vile response would have been far MORE horrendous than any atrocities the Japanese perpetrated during the war. If we HAD exterminated the entire Japanese race after the war the world would view us as genocidal monsters... and they would be 100% correct.

Again... you are making decisions without information. What was the lifestyle of the Canaanites? What was their future?

I find it interesting about your response. Are you saying that we shouldn't have used the atomic bomb killing the men, women and children while we let them continue murdering men, women and children?

"I disagree... Jesus came and clarified it very simply and succinctly!"

Sure, he clarified enough so that today we have thousands of different Christian sects who can't seem to agree on exactly what Jesus was trying to convey. Why, he clarified it so well that millions of people died in Europe fighting over who had interpreted Jesus's words correctly. He clarified it so well that millions of people today believe that Jesus came and visited America, because just as God spoke to Moses thousands of years ago, He ALSO spoke to Joseph Smith just about a century and a half ago. Why he clarified so well that we have websites like this one where all people do is argue over who/what God is and what this God wants from us.

I disagree. I find the disagreements when men ignore or discredit what was in black and white. As I interact with over a dozen Christian denominations, it would seem like we don't have the problem you are talking about.

What a sheme we weren't the 'first born' so we could have gotten the message directly, instead of having to rely on thousands of years of translation and of course those pesky mistranslated parts to get the message. I just wish this all powerful all knowing God were a better communicator. It certainly would eliminate a great deal of suffering and strife in the world.

Actually, the thousands of years of translations has been a plus. Under normal circumstances, one would think that after the millenniums of progressive translations in multiple languages would dictate a dichotomy of verbiage of texts.

History shows that there is little variance and the substantive information is actually in complete harmony.

A plus for Christian text. The advent of modern technology has enhanced our capacity to study and realize what man added, by interpretation, and what God said. No different than what Jesus said to the Pharisees of his time.

it remains a people problem not a clarity from God problem.

 

[QuestioningMind]

"KenS, post: 5084387, member: 47847"]I disagree. The process was detailed enough to find consistency. In fact, scriptures that are1000 years apart still are accurate. THE PRISTINE TRUTH: Reliability of the Old Testament Text"

Yet what good did this meticulous preservation of the ancient Hebrew text do? After all, some English scribe who made an error centuries ago has led virtually all English speakers to believe that one of the 10 commandments is wrong. I suppose that goes for any language that the bible was interpreted into from an English version of the bible as well. Clearly expecting fallible human beings to keep God's message in tact over the centuries has its flaws and seems to be a terribly ineffective means of communicating that message to future generations.

"I guess you would have to study to find out. Certainly getting facts and understanding before commenting is a good thing. No... no other words in the Ten Commandments are wrong. The word should have been translated "murder"."

I assume that you know there are no other errors in the ten commandments because you are personally fluent in ancient Hebrew. How many other mistranslated words are in the rest of the old testament? What about mistranslated words in the New testament? With an estimated 9 million people out of about 7 billion in the world who are fluent in Hebrew you are a very fortunate minority. Sadly for the rest of us checking the English version of the bible for errors in translation from Hebrew isn't an option. Not to mention being ignorant of the various languages that the New Testament has been translated from. That means that God apparently expects 99.999 out of every 100 humans alive to be forced to take the word of other fallible human beings as to what His message actually is. Now if humans beings were incapable of error and never let personal agendas influence their actions then I'd agree that this is a fine method for communicating an important message. But since the reality is that humans are quite error prone and often try to manipulate their fellow humans for personal gain, it is clearly a very POOR means of communicating an important message... that is if you genuinely want the vast majority of people to correctly understand it.


"You are talking about BC and about Jewish Law so please don't make confuse the two Last will and Testaments. For Christians, the Cross has eradicated some of the things that you are mentioning."

Ah yes, another of those supposedly crystal clear clarifications that Jesus made. Yet somehow when I Google 'did Jesus say to ignore the old testament' I got over 600,000 hits with articles with headlines that include:
Do Not Ignore The Old Testament – Evil Bible .com
No, Jesus Did Not Soften the Old Testament--In Fact He Did the opposite
Why do Christians ignore the Old Testament? It's the Word of God also ...
Jesus Affirms Old Testament
Jesus Said Forget the Old Testament

Gee, I'm sure glad that Jesus cleared THAT up. But of course you said it eradicated SOME of the things, which I guess means folks get to pick and choose which parts of the OT they still need to follow and which parts they can ignore. I mean, if Jesus had been clear about which parts are still valid and which aren't or if any parts had actually been eradicated at all, how can so many people vigorously debate the subject, with BOTH sides providing quotes from scripture that they claim supports their position? It just goes to show that the messages from the NT have been just as ineffectively communicated as the messages from the OT.

"Again... you are making decisions without information. What was the lifestyle of the Canaanites? What was their future?"

What lifestyle did the adult Canaanites practiced that you feel justified slaughtering their innocent children? And are you claiming that EVERY SINGLE adult Canaanite approved of and participated in the atrocities being committed? That sounds far more like war propaganda where you paint ALL of the enemy with the same broad brush. Do you honestly believe that every single German in Germany was aware of and fully supported the atrocities committed by Hitler and the SS? Are you of the opinion that every single person living in Japan was aware of and supported the atrocities committed by Imperial Troops during the war? Or were such terrible realities generally kept from the general population? But even if it WERE the case in Canaan that somehow every single adult participated and fully approved of the horrible acts that were being committed, do you seriously believe that a child should be punished for the misdeeds of their parents?

"I find it interesting about your response. Are you saying that we shouldn't have used the atomic bomb killing the men, women and children while we let them continue murdering men, women and children?"

There remains significant debate as to whether or not dropping 2 A bombs on Japan was needed to stop the war, but that's an argument for another time. Unfortunately your analogy falls flat, because even though innocent children were killed during those two attacks, we did not continue dropping A bombs on Japan until every single man woman and child was slaughtered. If we'd done THAT then your analogy would be apt.


"I disagree. I find the disagreements when men ignore or discredit what was in black and white. As I interact with over a dozen Christian denominations, it would seem like we don't have the problem you are talking about."

Funny how reasonable people can disagree as to what the meaning of what's in black and white is. If that weren't the case then there wouldn't be not just dozens but literally thousands of Christian denominations, let along thousands of completely DIFFERENT religions all based upon ancient writings with exactly as much validity as the ancient Hebrew writings. Apparently all gods have poor communications skills in common.


"Actually, the thousands of years of translations has been a plus. Under normal circumstances, one would think that after the millenniums of progressive translations in multiple languages would dictate a dichotomy of verbiage of texts.

History shows that there is little variance and the substantive information is actually in complete harmony."

Yet a FAR more effective means of conveying a vital message would be to not have ANY fallible human translations involved whatsoever. Even I a horrible fallible human being can see that. It amazes me that it isn't obvious to God as well

"A plus for Christian text. The advent of modern technology has enhanced our capacity to study and realize what man added, by interpretation, and what God said. No different than what Jesus said to the Pharisees of his time.

it remains a people problem not a clarity from God problem."

However, since God decided that the way to convey his message was by using these fallible often self-serving people to pass it on from one generation to the next it kind of IS a God problem... unless of course God wants us to be confused. In which case the method God chose appears to be working just fine.

One final analogy. I'm a father with 12 children and I have the same message I want conveyed to all 12 of them. I decide to tell my eldest the message and expect him to pass it on to the other 11. At the end of the day I find that only 2 of my children received the message in tact. The other 10 either misinterpreted some of what the eldest told them, took it out of context, or somehow never got the message at all. As a father should I consider the means of communication I used to convey my message to have been effective? I could blame the lack of communication on my children's inability to interpret properly or their ignorance of proper context or the fact that one of them happened to be down in a corner of the basement when the message was getting passed around and never got it. Or I could acknowledge that I would have had far better luck getting this vital information across if I'd taken the time to sit down and convey the message to each of my children individually. As a father I would have to acknowledge that I either didn't really want all my children to get the message or that I picked a really poor method for getting my message across.

 

[Kenny]

"KenS, post: 5084387, member: 47847"]
I assume that you know there are no other errors in the ten commandments because you are personally fluent in ancient Hebrew. How many other mistranslated words are in the rest of the old testament? What about mistranslated words in the New testament? With an estimated 9 million people out of about 7 billion in the world who are fluent in Hebrew you are a very fortunate minority. Sadly for the rest of us checking the English version of the bible for errors in translation from Hebrew isn't an option. Not to mention being ignorant of the various languages that the New Testament has been translated from. That means that God apparently expects 99.999 out of every 100 humans alive to be forced to take the word of other fallible human beings as to what His message actually is. Now if humans beings were incapable of error and never let personal agendas influence their actions then I'd agree that this is a fine method for communicating an important message. But since the reality is that humans are quite error prone and often try to manipulate their fellow humans for personal gain, it is clearly a very POOR means of communicating an important message... that is if you genuinely want the vast majority of people to correctly understand it.

Only poor to you.

What part of "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life" is so poor in communicating an important message?

The obvious point is that for all the hoopla you have just given is quite mute.

Addressed already that scholars have shown that the different languages did not change the message.

Ah yes, another of those supposedly crystal clear clarifications that Jesus made. Yet somehow when I Google 'did Jesus say to ignore the old testament' I got over 600,000 hits with articles with headlines that include:
Do Not Ignore The Old Testament – Evil Bible .com
No, Jesus Did Not Soften the Old Testament--In Fact He Did the opposite
Why do Christians ignore the Old Testament? It's the Word of God also ...
Jesus Affirms Old Testament
Jesus Said Forget the Old Testament

Yes, you can find anything... even unicorns on the internet.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the OT scriptures. Please share where I said "ignore the old Testament". I said the cross changed much of the old testament requirements and kept some of them the same.

Gee, I'm sure glad that Jesus cleared THAT up. But of course you said it eradicated SOME of the things, which I guess means folks get to pick and choose which parts of the OT they still need to follow and which parts they can ignore. I mean, if Jesus had been clear about which parts are still valid and which aren't or if any parts had actually been eradicated at all, how can so many people vigorously debate the subject, with BOTH sides providing quotes from scripture that they claim supports their position? It just goes to show that the messages from the NT have been just as ineffectively communicated as the messages from the OT.

I suppose you can create an argument about anything. Name me one Christian church that believes you should still sacrifice lambs.

"Again... you are making decisions without information. What was the lifestyle of the Canaanites? What was their future?"

What lifestyle did the adult Canaanites practiced that you feel justified slaughtering their innocent children? And are you claiming that EVERY SINGLE adult Canaanite approved of and participated in the atrocities being committed? That sounds far more like war propaganda where you paint ALL of the enemy with the same broad brush. Do you honestly believe that every single German in Germany was aware of and fully supported the atrocities committed by Hitler and the SS? Are you of the opinion that every single person living in Japan was aware of and supported the atrocities committed by Imperial Troops during the war? Or were such terrible realities generally kept from the general population? But even if it WERE the case in Canaan that somehow every single adult participated and fully approved of the horrible acts that were being committed, do you seriously believe that a child should be punished for the misdeeds of their parents?

You are creating a strawman.

How would life be if prostituting your children would be OK? How much sickness is there in bestiality? (notice that they had to kill animals too) How many antibiotics were there to stop rampant sickness? What would happen to a community if incest was the acceptable lifestyle? How long should you pass on to your children that it is OK to sacrifice their children? Was the future of the Canaanites in context of neighbors? Where were you when God looked over the condition 400 years before and said their evil had not ripened yet? And if it wasn't ripened then, how far can humanity degrade in thought and in practice?

I'm just glad that now God has opened the door for people to find new life.

"I find it interesting about your response. Are you saying that we shouldn't have used the atomic bomb killing the men, women and children while we let them continue murdering men, women and children?"

There remains significant debate as to whether or not dropping 2 A bombs on Japan was needed to stop the war, but that's an argument for another time. Unfortunately your analogy falls flat, because even though innocent children were killed during those two attacks, we did not continue dropping A bombs on Japan until every single man woman and child was slaughtered. If we'd done THAT then your analogy would be apt.

Yes... they surrendered. And God is not asking anyone to annihilate anyone now. Now He is asking people to share the love of Jesus with everyone.

However, since God decided that the way to convey his message was by using these fallible often self-serving people to pass it on from one generation to the next it kind of IS a God problem... unless of course God wants us to be confused. In which case the method God chose appears to be working just fine.

Noticed you said "people". That is what I said. However, the Bible is not people. The message is the same.

One final analogy. I'm a father with 12 children and I have the same message I want conveyed to all 12 of them. I decide to tell my eldest the message and expect him to pass it on to the other 11. At the end of the day I find that only 2 of my children received the message in tact. The other 10 either misinterpreted some of what the eldest told them, took it out of context, or somehow never got the message at all. As a father should I consider the means of communication I used to convey my message to have been effective? I could blame the lack of communication on my children's inability to interpret properly or their ignorance of proper context or the fact that one of them happened to be down in a corner of the basement when the message was getting passed around and never got it. Or I could acknowledge that I would have had far better luck getting this vital information across if I'd taken the time to sit down and convey the message to each of my children individually. As a father I would have to acknowledge that I either didn't really want all my children to get the message or that I picked a really poor method for getting my message across.

Or... if you wrote down "Everyone picks up their own clothes before you come down to eat". Then the eldest can't take it out of context and the youngest can't misinterpret.

Thus... the Bible...

But I'm sure the youngest would say "But I thought you meant starting tomorrow".

A people problem not a message problem

 

[Muffled]

Jesus brought truth---Catholicism added false teachings at their councils--they were never corrected until the JW teachers corrected them. I don't attack--I speak--FACT. If the world cannot face--FACT--they do not belong here.

I believe the JW's are not useful for correcting things since it would be the blind leading the blind.

 

[Muffled]

Maybe His will is to get us confused.

If He exists, it cannot be otherwise. For, I cannot imagine a God,worth His title, whose will is not enforced.

Ciao

- viole

I believe you should be careful what you wish for. You might end up on the wrong end of that.

 

[kjw47]

And yet, only accept JW adherents accept such corrections, while the rest of believers, not just Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants and Jews don't accept such corrections, as each have their own teachings.

The question is what make JW corrections have more authority than that of other Christian sects?

The teachings of Jesus back the jw teachers

 

[Kenny]

The teachings of Jesus back the jw teachers

In some cases... Then again... even a broken clock is right two times out of a day.

 

[kjw47]

In some cases... Then again... even a broken clock is right two times out of a day.

Jesus' teachings expose every trinity religion false.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus' teachings expose every trinity religion false.

I disagree unless you only look at some scriptures at the expense of others.

Your complete person is also a trinity... spirit, soul and body and yet still one person. We are made in His image and in His likeness. Each part of you has a different purpose and perhaps a different materiality but together you still are just one person.

If I were to simply look at those scriptures that references my body, then you would hold onto the erroneous position that I am only a body and not a trinity. Likewise, if you look at the scriptures that only references the person of God, you would also come to the conclusion that there isn't the Biblical reference of the Godhead.

 

[QuestioningMind]

"Addressed already that scholars have shown that the different languages did not change the message."

Don't start stating obvious falsehoods. There may be SOME scholars who claim that no errors were made in the numerous different translations of the bible, but there are JUST AS MANY who indicate that there were NUMEROUS mistranslated passages. Which of course means that your average poor soul has no way of knowing themselves and must again put their faith into fallible humans beings instead of God. And this putting faith in fallible humans seems to cause nothing but problems over the years

"Yes, you can find anything... even unicorns on the internet."

Why yes, you CAN find unicorns on the Internet. Guess what, you can ALSO find endless examples of Christians fighting over whether or not Jesus came to END the old laws or to PRESERVE them. Funny how you just up and ignore the ones who don't agree with what you think. You'll ALSO find lots of articles where SCHOLARS talk about the NUMEROUS mistranslated portions of the bible, so quit lying and claiming that all the scholars agree.


"I suppose you can create an argument about anything. Name me one Christian church that believes you should still sacrifice lambs."

Although slaughter for sacrifice contradicts a basic belief of Christianity, it is practiced by local Catholics, Greek Orthodox and other Christians at the ruined Byzantine church of Saint George in the village of Taybeh, 20 miles from Jerusalem. "Around 70 to 80 lambs are sacrificed here each year," said the Roman Catholic priest, Father Raed. Similar sacrifices are also made in the towns of Lodd, Jaffa, al-Khadar and elsewhere in the Holy Land.


"You are creating a strawman."

No, I'm asking you questions that you apparently want to avoid answering. I asked if you honestly believed that EVERY SINGLE ADULT in Canaan participated in the atrocities. I then went on to ask you if you think ALL Germans and Japanese were ALSO involved in and aware of the atrocities committed by their rulers. I suspect that you avoided the questions because you know that claiming ALL Canaanites were involved and aware would be just as ludicrous as claiming ALL Germans and Japanese were aware as well.


"Yes... they surrendered. And God is not asking anyone to annihilate anyone now. Now He is asking people to share the love of Jesus with everyone."

Yet God DID ask His followers to commit genocide THEN and if He's okay with genocide in SOME circumstances it becomes REAL easy for humans to decide that God wants them to commit genocide in OTHER situations as well.


"Noticed you said "people". That is what I said. However, the Bible is not people. The message is the same."

Yes, but its PEOPLE who have been maintaining the bible for centuries. In fact it was PEOPLE who decided which books should be included in the bible in the first place. This WORD OF GOD would be so much more reliable if God hadn't put PEOPLE in charge of so much of it. How sad.


"Or... if you wrote down "Everyone picks up their own clothes before you come down to eat". Then the eldest can't take it out of context and the youngest can't misinterpret.

Thus... the Bible..."

Which again has been maintained by fallible humans for centuries and it was in fact fallible human beings who decided what to include in the bible and what to exclude. A perfect infallible God who decides the best way to pass along his message is by relying of fallible humans to put it together and maintain it has picked a very poor means of communication.

 

[Kenny]

Don't start stating obvious falsehoods. There may be SOME scholars who claim that no errors were made in the numerous different translations of the bible, but there are JUST AS MANY who indicate that there were NUMEROUS mistranslated passages.

Please don't state obvious falsehoods. There may be SOME scholars that make it an issue but THE VAST MAJORITY will hold on to the stance that the mistranslations are minimal and don't change the message.

Although slaughter for sacrifice contradicts a basic belief of Christianity, it is practiced by local Catholics, Greek Orthodox and other Christians at the ruined Byzantine church of Saint George in the village of Taybeh, 20 miles from Jerusalem. "Around 70 to 80 lambs are sacrificed here each year," said the Roman Catholic priest, Father Raed. Similar sacrifices are also made in the towns of Lodd, Jaffa, al-Khadar and elsewhere in the Holy Land.

LOL... you are too funny. You are proving my point... PEOPLE may do things but neither the Catholic or Greek Orthodox hold the practice as part of their faith. There are Catholic Priests who are involved in Satanism but that doesn't mean that it is Catholic policy.

You are giving a lot of fake news.

No, I'm asking you questions that you apparently want to avoid answering. I asked if you honestly believed that EVERY SINGLE ADULT in Canaan participated in the atrocities. I then went on to ask you if you think ALL Germans and Japanese were ALSO involved in and aware of the atrocities committed by their rulers. I suspect that you avoided the questions because you know that claiming ALL Canaanites were involved and aware would be just as ludicrous as claiming ALL Germans and Japanese were aware as well.

And I answered the questions. That you didn't like the answer while not answering my questions is a matter of you returning the served tennis ball.

Canaanites and Japanese are apples and oranges. BC and AD are apples and oranges.

Yet God DID ask His followers to commit genocide THEN and if He's okay with genocide in SOME circumstances it becomes REAL easy for humans to decide that God wants them to commit genocide in OTHER situations as well.

Yes... it is easy for humans to twist things and conform it to their desires just as it is easy for you to twist things and conform it to your belief system.

"Noticed you said "people". That is what I said. However, the Bible is not people. The message is the same."

Yes, but its PEOPLE who have been maintaining the bible for centuries. In fact it was PEOPLE who decided which books should be included in the bible in the first place. This WORD OF GOD would be so much more reliable if God hadn't put PEOPLE in charge of so much of it. How sad.

Then again... you aren't God. Supposing that you had a better idea would be ludicrous.

"Or... if you wrote down "Everyone picks up their own clothes before you come down to eat". Then the eldest can't take it out of context and the youngest can't misinterpret.

Thus... the Bible..."

Which again has been maintained by fallible humans for centuries and it was in fact fallible human beings who decided what to include in the bible and what to exclude. A perfect infallible God who decides the best way to pass along his message is by relying of fallible humans to put it together and maintain it has picked a very poor means of communication.

Which again goes back to the way they transcribed it to maintain its veracity... and thus we have gone the full circle.

 

[QuestioningMind]

"KenS, post: 5086531, member: 47847"]Please don't state obvious falsehoods. There may be SOME scholars that make it an issue but THE VAST MAJORITY will hold on to the stance that the mistranslations are minimal and don't change the message."

Well at least you confess that your original claim that all scholars are in agreement on this point was a falsehood. Now we can debate the percentage that agree with you vs the percentage that agree with me ad nauseam, but the fact remains that the EXPERTS don't ALL agree, which means those of us who aren't fortunate enough to be experts are forced to place our faith in one school of scholarly thought or another. So God gives us a message, but then we just have to cross our fingers and hope that we pick the right authority to tell us if it's valid or not. What a terribly ineffective way to get your message across to everyone.



"LOL... you are too funny. You are proving my point... PEOPLE may do things but neither the Catholic or Greek Orthodox hold the practice as part of their faith. There are Catholic Priests who are involved in Satanism but that doesn't mean that it is Catholic policy.

You are giving a lot of fake news."

Oh come on now, don't be pathetic. YOU asked for an example of a Christian church that still sacrifices lambs... I provide such an example, but then YOU claim it doesn't count because YOU don't recognize it as a LEGITIMATE Christian church. So what, now YOU get to be the authority on what a REAL Christian is or is not? Sorry, but the simple fact that Christians DO endlessly debate who's a REAL Christian and who is not is yet another example of how porly God has diciminated His message.



"And I answered the questions. That you didn't like the answer while not answering my questions is a matter of you returning the served tennis ball.

Canaanites and Japanese are apples and oranges. BC and AD are apples and oranges."

Really, Canaanites and the Japanese are apples and oranges, huh? Then care to explain why YOU were the one who originally brought up Japan? They apparently were NOT apples and oranges when you asked me if I would have stood by and let the Japanese continue to perpetrate atrocities, but NOW when I ask you if you think all Japanese were implicit in the atrocities committed by the Japanese government, as you claim all Canaanites were, suddenly the example is APPLES & ORANGES. How VERY convenient for you. It's applicable when YOU want to make a point, but inapplicable if I dare to use the same example to make MY point.


"Yes... it is easy for humans to twist things and conform it to their desires just as it is easy for you to tist things and conform it to your belief system."

Yep, and counting on such fallible humans so capable of twisting things to conform to their desires to reliably to pass along the important message century after century would be incredibly foolish... iof you actuaklly wanted the majority of people to truly understand the massage, that is.


"Then again... you aren't God. Supposing that you had a better idea would be ludicrous."

Yeah, it really kind of is, isn't it? You'd think that a mere fallible human being like me wouldn't be able to come up with a better method than an all powerful all knowing God. The very fact that I have suggests that maybe this method of distribution isn't God's at all, but rather a method devised by fallible human beings who have a tendency to twisting things to conform to own selfish desires.


"Which again goes back to the way they transcribed it to maintain its veracity... and thus we have gone the full circle.[/QUOTE]"

Well, at least according to SOME of the experts... which means we get to pick and choose which fallible human beings we want to believe in and which ones we decide have been fooled into believing falsehoods. Oh and I don't recall you replying to the reality that it was again those fallible humans who decided what should be considered the bible and what should not.

 

[Kenny]

"
Oh come on now, don't be pathetic. YOU asked for an example of a Christian church that still sacrifices lambs... I provide such an example, but then YOU claim it doesn't count because YOU don't recognize it as a LEGITIMATE Christian church. So what, now YOU get to be the authority on what a REAL Christian is or is not? Sorry, but the simple fact that Christians DO endlessly debate who's a REAL Christian and who is not is yet another example of how porly God has diciminated His message.

Do you always misquote? Twist what was said?

If a person of a Greek Orthodox church sacrifices a lamb and it is not in accordance to the mother Greek Orthodox Church... then it is the PERSON that did it and not the church.

So, once again you just proved my point.

Really, Canaanites and the Japanese are apples and oranges, huh? Then care to explain why YOU were the one who originally brought up Japan?

To show how fickle you are in your position. DON'T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE while you let others do it.

Yep, and counting on such fallible humans so capable of twisting things to conform to their desires to reliably to pass along the important message century after century would be incredibly foolish... iof you actuaklly wanted the majority of people to truly understand the massage, that is.

Actually, again, you prove my point It isn't that people, like yourself, can't understand it but rather you just don't want it.

Which is fine.

Yeah, it really kind of is, isn't it? You'd think that a mere fallible human being like me wouldn't be able to come up with a better method than an all powerful all knowing God. The very fact that I have suggests that maybe this method of distribution isn't God's at all, but rather a method devised by fallible human beings who have a tendency to twisting things to conform to own selfish desires.

You just proved my point. PEOPLE twist things. But as the record shows, the message hasn't.


"

"

Well, at least according to SOME of the experts... which means we get to pick and choose which fallible human beings we want to believe in and which ones we decide have been fooled into believing falsehoods. Oh and I don't recall you replying to the reality that it was again those fallible humans who decided what should be considered the bible and what should not.

It isn't that hard.