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God-Belief, Reason & Faith

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I've seen 3 or 4 threads this morning where I was tempted to make the same points, but they didn't quite fit. So, I started my own.

It seems that most of our non-believing forum friends assume that all faith is groundless. The most popular definition is "belief without evidence." This is not always the case. Experiences differ, and with experience comes data which must be accommodated.

To use myself as an example, my belief comes from an intense and transformative theophany I had quite young, accompanied by a small miracle. It would be the height of irrationality for me to discard this information simply because someone else has an equally unprovable opinion. Especially since none to date have offered an equally satisfactory explanation for my experience.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I've seen 3 or 4 threads this morning where I was tempted to make the same points, but they didn't quite fit. So, I started my own.

It seems that most of our non-believing forum friends assume that all faith is groundless. The most popular definition is "belief without evidence." This is not always the case. Experiences differ, and with experience comes data which must be accommodated.

To use myself as an example, my belief comes from an intense and transformative theophany I had quite young, accompanied by a small miracle. It would be the height of irrationality for me to discard this information simply because someone else has an equally unprovable opinion. Especially since none to date have offered an equally satisfactory explanation for my experience.

I feel exactly the same way as you here, especially on the part I highlighted.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
My particular criticism towards those beliefs that are actually grounded in life experiences is the tendency to interpret given events in a particular manner that simply favours our own bias.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
I've seen 3 or 4 threads this morning where I was tempted to make the same points, but they didn't quite fit. So, I started my own.

It seems that most of our non-believing forum friends assume that all faith is groundless. The most popular definition is "belief without evidence." This is not always the case. Experiences differ, and with experience comes data which must be accommodated.

To use myself as an example, my belief comes from an intense and transformative theophany I had quite young, accompanied by a small miracle. It would be the height of irrationality for me to discard this information simply because someone else has an equally unprovable opinion. Especially since none to date have offered an equally satisfactory explanation for my experience.

"God is in the Gaps."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To use myself as an example, my belief comes from an intense and transformative theophany I had quite young, accompanied by a small miracle. It would be the height of irrationality for me to discard this information simply because someone else has an equally unprovable opinion. Especially since none to date have offered an equally satisfactory explanation for my experience.
But there are two steps in the process:

- the experience itself
- the attribution of that experience to some cause

Nobody "feels God". People feel experiences that they attribute to God.

For instance, I notice an attribution inherent in your language: you say "theophany" (i.e. "appearance of a deity") rather than, for instance, "vision". You say "a small miracle" (i.e. "direct intervention from a deity") rather than, say, "a small unexpected event".

I also notice that you seem to have an unstated premise: that your senses were reliable during this experience.

So maybe it would be more accurate to say that it's a 3-step process:

1. I experienced 'X'.
2. My experience is reflective of some reality outside my own head.
3. I attribute this reality to a deity (or other supernatural thing).
Conclusion: Therefore, God.

The person experiencing 'X' is the best judge of step 1. Depending on the person's state of mind (both now and at the time of the experience), he may or may not be the best judge of step 2. Given the results of step 1 and 2, anyone capable of using logic can do step 3. If you miss any step in this chain, you lose your conclusion.
 
Not to down play anyone's personal experiences here, but your post reminds me of a story I heard once, an elderly man on his death bed suffering from dementia (awful disease) who had a moment described by family members as perfect clarity where all his faculties returned right before he passed. He suddenly looked up and said that he saw angels, etc. and then passed moments later. Again, not to be cruel, but I wouldn't consider that a moment of clarity or as proof of an afterlife. More than likely it was part of his mind deteriorating, a hallucination based on years of misguided faith. Unless your miracles are repeatable and demonstratable I don't think anyone should be taking them as evidence of anything. Especially given how fragile and open to to corruption the human mind is.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
My particular criticism towards those beliefs that are actually grounded in life experiences is the tendency to interpret given events in a particular manner that simply favours our own bias.
That is a concern, and one I bear firmly in mind. However, the data must still be accommodated.

"God is in the Gaps."
Way to dodge the point, dude.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
That is a concern, and one I bear firmly in mind. However, the data must still be accommodated.


Way to dodge the point, dude.

I hardly dodged the point, because you lack a knowledge to define what you experienced, you claim God did it.

God of the Gaps.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
It seems that most of our non-believing forum friends assume that all faith is groundless. The most popular definition is "belief without evidence." This is not always the case. Experiences differ, and with experience comes data which must be accommodated.

I don't think people would have faith if it was groundless. The difference between myself and believers is a variance in what constitutes reasonable grounds for belief for each of us.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Nobody "feels God".
How do you know?

People feel experiences that they attribute to God.
People also feel experiences they attribute to wind. If the attribution is correct (and we currently have no way of answering that), then your correction is mere pedantry.

For instance, I notice an attribution inherent in your language: you say "theophany" (i.e. "appearance of a deity") rather than, for instance, "vision". You say "a small miracle" (i.e. "direct intervention from a deity") rather than, say, "a small unexpected event".
Those weren't the definitions I was using. You should know me better by now! :p

Theophany (as used in the context of neurotheology): A spontaneous trance state, usually of an intensity unattainable by voluntary practice.

Miracle is a fuzzier word. I'd call it an unexplained, beneficial event with no known cause. However, the phrasing is unimportant in this case, and if there's another word you prefer, say so. :)

I also notice that you seem to have an unstated premise: that your senses were reliable during this experience.
1) Just to be clear, it wasn't a physical sensation. Had it been, I'd be much less confident.
2) Our senses are all we have.

1. I experienced 'X'.
2. My experience is reflective of some reality outside my own head.
3. I attribute this reality to a deity (or other supernatural thing).
Conclusion: Therefore, God.
Who said anything about supernatural? Again, you know me better than that.

But to answer the point, I think 2 is the crux of the matter. Either it's real, and we call it "God," OR it's a neurological illusion.

However, you're missing my point. Since we have no way of answering 2, we have no way of verifying the conclusions. I admit this, and always have. However, until we know, the subject of the experience must still figure out some way of understanding the experience. Maybe in 50 years we'll know for sure. Until then, "God" is as reasonable a conclusion as any.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I hardly dodged the point, because you lack a knowledge to define what you experienced, you claim God did it.

God of the Gaps.
I have defined it, and I don't say God did anything. As you might know, had you bothered to ask.

Now, would you like to have a conversation, or do you prefer to masturbate your ego?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I've seen 3 or 4 threads this morning where I was tempted to make the same points, but they didn't quite fit. So, I started my own.

It seems that most of our non-believing forum friends assume that all faith is groundless. The most popular definition is "belief without evidence." This is not always the case. Experiences differ, and with experience comes data which must be accommodated.

To use myself as an example, my belief comes from an intense and transformative theophany I had quite young, accompanied by a small miracle. It would be the height of irrationality for me to discard this information simply because someone else has an equally unprovable opinion. Especially since none to date have offered an equally satisfactory explanation for my experience.

I think you answered yourself. There is a big difference between faith and belief. Faith is popularly defined, as you mention, as a particular kind of belief. You can have belief based on evidence, as you could consider your belief to be, and you can have belief not based on evidence, which would be faith.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I think you answered yourself. There is a big difference between faith and belief. Faith is popularly defined, as you mention, as a particular kind of belief. You can have belief based on evidence, as you could consider your belief to be, and you can have belief not based on evidence, which would be faith.
Yes, granted. However, while "without evidence" is a valid definition, it's not the only one. But that's been done to death, and is not really the topic. :)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Some participants touched on it.....'how do you know?'

There won't be any equations, experiments, photos, or fingerprints.
So....'how do you know?'

To speak with certainty and not have 'evidence'?...of course we can.
We humans do so all the time.

Speak of God while having doubt?...of course...

But it does not follow that reason is invalid when you speak of faith.

When it comes to pronouncement about God....
all you DO have, is your reasoning.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How do you know?
Because in general, when we "experience" a thing, what we're actually experiencing are perceptions that are the result of that thing, not the thing itself. A set of perceptions is an image.

People also feel experiences they attribute to wind. If the attribution is correct (and we currently have no way of answering that), then your correction is mere pedantry.
Well, no, because we don't often get people saying things like "I'm the only one who knows what I experienced, so you can't question me when I say it's the wind". If someone did say that they experienced the wind and when you asked them what it felt like, they told you it was like a painful electric shock and not a combined sensation of cooling and distributed force, then we can say that what they felt wasn't the wind. It was something, but not wind.

To get from "I felt 'X'" to "I experienced 'Y'", you have to be able to answer questions like "what does 'Y' feel like?" and "how do you know it wasn't something else?"


Those weren't the definitions I was using. You should know me better by now! :p

Theophany (as used in the context of neurotheology): A spontaneous trance state, usually of an intensity unattainable by voluntary practice.
Well, if that's what you mean, then that helps clarify things... however, I don't see why you have to conclude that a "spontaneous trance state, usually of an intensity unattainable by voluntary practice" couldn't have been caused by you yourself. Maybe you're not "usual"; maybe you're gifted with an extraordinary skill at trances. Why is this less reasonable than "God did it"?

"Usually unattainable" is not the same thing as "never unattainable".

Miracle is a fuzzier word. I'd call it an unexplained, beneficial event with no known cause. However, the phrasing is unimportant in this case, and if there's another word you prefer, say so. :)
Serendipity, given that definition.

I think that "miracle" implies some sort of intervention by God, angels, ghosts, etc.

1) Just to be clear, it wasn't a physical sensation. Had it been, I'd be much less confident.
What kind of sensation was it, then?

2) Our senses are all we have.
So? You're not responding to my point.

A: "Can you buy a Cadillac with $100?"
B: "Well, all I have on me is $100."

Who said anything about supernatural? Again, you know me better than that.
I'm leaving the category open. My point is that the same logic works just as well for beliefs about angels, demons, djinn, ghosts, etc., as it does for gods.

But to answer the point, I think 2 is the crux of the matter. Either it's real, and we call it "God," OR it's a neurological illusion.

However, you're missing my point. Since we have no way of answering 2, we have no way of verifying the conclusions. I admit this, and always have.
We don't? I think we can at least make reasonable inferences about 2. For instance, I once heard an offhand remark (which I don't know if it's true) that an inordinate number of descriptions of religious experiences have them set either late at night or early in the morning: "I was just falling asleep when..."; "I was woken up in the middle of the night by..."; "I had just woken up when..."... etc. When we're just entering or leaving a dream-state, I think it's reasonable to treat our experiences with suspicion. In these sorts of cases, it's not always reasonable to assume that our perceptions match reality.

However, until we know, the subject of the experience must still figure out some way of understanding the experience. Maybe in 50 years we'll know for sure. Until then, "God" is as reasonable a conclusion as any.
Not necessarily. Our experiences may suggest an explanation, but that explanation still has to work. It's subject to tests of external and internal consistency: does it suggest things that make it contradict itself? If so, we can dismiss it as false, regardless of how compelling the experience was. Same thing if it contradicts aspects of reality that are demonstrably true.
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
We don't? I think we can at least make reasonable inferences about 2. For instance, I once heard an offhand remark (which I don't know if it's true) that an inordinate number of descriptions of religious experiences have them set either late at night or early in the morning: "I was just falling asleep when..."; "I was woken up in the middle of the night by..."; "I had just woken up when..."... etc. When we're just entering or leaving a dream-state, I think it's reasonable to treat our experiences with suspicion. In these sorts of cases, it's not always reasonable to assume that our perceptions match reality.
I've considered all that, and it really doesn't apply.

Not necessarily. Our experiences may suggest an explanation, but that explanation still has to work. It's subject to tests of external and internal consistency: does it suggest things that make it contradict itself? If so, we can dismiss it as false, regardless of how compelling the experience was. Same thing if it contradicts aspects of reality that are demonstrably true.
And when it doesn't?

Look, I'm not offering up my experiences as proof for anyone else. All I'm saying is that, in the absence of an authoritative answer either way, it's not really fair to call people like me "irrational." We have a different set of data to account for, that's all.
 
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