God and heaven and hell in the After Life: if it turns to be true of false?

[psychoslice]

Smart_Guy could never be rude, he just a great fellow.

 

[shawn001]

25 seconds into the video

 

[Smart_Guy]

Oh gosh you guys, cut it out, you're making me blush

Constructively blush

 

[psychoslice]

Oh gosh you guys, cut it out, you're making me blush

Constructively blush

Well you deserve it my friend.

 

[Ashraf]

Atheists will be the biggest losers in your scenario

 

[Shad]

The scenario is fallacious thus unsound and invalid. The only losers in this are those that answer flawed arguments as they demonstrate a lack of an education and critical thinking skills. The questions are no more than Pascal Wagers which have been refuted for about 250 years.

Pascal's Wager (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Thief]

Don't "think."

Being conscious and alive is not separate from body.

Pulling scriptures out such as you have, why don't you search where "God" abides. Where the tabernacle of God truly is.

"I am." =
The very nature of God. The phrase “I AM THAT I AM” is meant to be understood metaphysically, it means God is BEING. BEING is that which is both the un-manifested (spirit) and that which is manifested (physical matter) at the same time. God is the sum total of both, the unborn infinite potential and the creation.

I'm not sure what kind of image you've created of what and who "God" is but it gives the false impression of the infinite, God cannot be represented by any form (things). Contrary to popular belief, God does not have a body separate from his creation. He is the sum total of it all.

You say life and body are as one.....and then use the term ....metaphysical.
ooops!

God is Spirit.
The kingdom is not of this world.

I do not confuse the creation with it's Creator.

 

[Thief]

In my beliefs, it happens in the flesh. There is lots to say about the nature of this resurrection in my beliefs and it is not pretty. But perhaps even if it is in spirit, there still can be blessing and torture that be inflicted upon it.

I see this life a means of generating unique spirit on each occasion of person.
When then shed the flesh and move to something more.

I suspect the next life is more.
It will have greater Hierarchy....and discipline.
It will then have greater opportunity.

But why deliver greater things unto those not willing?
unto those not peaceful.
unto those without belief of spirit?

If you cannot be trusted with lesser things....how then anything greater?

 

[Thief]

Everyone thinks the God they personally believe in is the right one of course. But what if its not...

If you get along with Him.....mind and heart....fine, no problem.
You've got the right God.

If you end up at odds with Him.....wrong God.

Oh!...that's right.....God does not prove Himself to Man!!!!!
it's suppose to be the other way around!

 

[Thief]

But if there is no glory in being human, why would human qualities be found in the next life?
And that doesn't answer my question. If I am correct in assuming you are implying that humans are transformed into spiritual beings, then how would we function? What would happen of us? We are the way we are because we are human. If we cease to be human, we become something entirely different. Thus, we, or rather more specifically, "I," must cease to exist in order for this transformation to occur because "I" is a brain. Not unless you attach something that is needless onto it. That, however, is to open up a flood gate of questions.

Losing your flesh is one thing....and you will.
Losing your mind and emotions...quite something else.

We communicate in this life by word.
I write it....you read it.
I say it....you hear it.
This ends with my last heart beat.....and breath.

Next life is mind to mind....heart to heart.
We share our dreams.

7billion souls.
If I spend a moment the length of an earthly year with each one.....
I will be busy....7billion years.

Then maybe I start over!

 

[Smart_Guy]

I see this life a means of generating unique spirit on each occasion of person.
When then shed the flesh and move to something more.

I suspect the next life is more.
It will have greater Hierarchy....and discipline.
It will then have greater opportunity.

But why deliver greater things unto those not willing?
unto those not peaceful.
unto those without belief of spirit?

If you cannot be trusted with lesser things....how then anything greater?

Dude, you're scaring me.

 

[averageJOE]

Atheists will be the biggest losers in your scenario

Please explain how.

 

[Blastcat]

Gosh. So many people hoping for an afterlife.

That is just weird. And more than a bit disgusting, frankly.

That's an interesting idea.. disgusting? Why is a belief in an afterlife disgusting?
Maybe you could elaborate.

 

[Blastcat]

I'm not angry, Smart Guy. That is a good question to ask. I am glad that you did ask it.

All the same, that people see afterlives as desirable, let alone believable... that does bug me quite a lot. It hurts my ability to have hope in humanity.

That is just how things are, at least now (and have always been to me far as I can remember). I have honestly never come across any arguments for either the existence or the desirability of an afterlife that I could muster much sympathy for... and quite a few are indeed disgusting, clear evidence of very misguided and harmful beliefs.

How does it hurt your ability to have hope in humanity?

 

[Blastcat]

So if religion says don't commit adultery then it's the Satan and his demons asking us not to commit adultery.

Fun speculation.. It doesn't even have to be Satan, of course, Satan might not exist at all.. But it might be a perfectly evil god setting humans up for a perfectly horrible after life.. AND wasting everyone's time on earth...

Let's play with your fun idea.. that it's Satan who wants us not to commit adultery.. fun.. lots of people have trouble NOT finding other people sexually attractive even IN a marriage... So, maybe it's a grand setup for humans to fail..

We are DESIGNED.. lol.. to be sexually attracted to one another.. that's a part of being human. So, yah, how about let's make a rule that a lot of people won't be able to follow.. and then we can send those to hell.. Great idea for Satan...

 

[Blastcat]

But if the Christian or Muslim God is real then you would find it appealing cos He designed it so everybody is happy there. It's probably like the party you get forced to attend even though you don't want to and end up having a great time.

In Valhalla, you just get to get drunk and feast every day on some tip-top booze made by Gods which sounds alright too.

As regards the OP, better to believe and be wrong as there is no downside. If you don't believe and are wrong, then you might die and then find out you were in for an eternity of excruciating torment on the same day which would probably be a bit irritating

Problem with that is that if I'm an atheists, and I consider the WAGER.. and I BET on heaven so that I can avoid Hell... and that's the ONLY reason I choose to believe?.... ah...... I'm not too sure that St.Peter is going to let me through dem pearly gates...

So, I'd better be able to convince myself that I believe when i really don't... IN A HURRY... because I can get hit by a bus...
Or is God really that shallow, according to Christians who think Pascal had a good idea?

 

[Blastcat]

Its better to live with hope then without hope.

We can live with hope in things that we know are possible.. and we can stop hoping for things that we can't possibly know are possible. We don't have any reason to believe in a heaven or a hell or anything else after we die.

To me, it's utter foolishness to hope for something that we can't possibly know is even real. TO ME.. that's like hoping for Santa .. or any other ungrounded belief..

Please understand. When I say your god beliefs are like believing in Santa, I am not trying to offend. I am saying that TO ME and to many atheists, an unfounded belief is as good as any other unfounded belief, and that is .. not at all good.

So, to me, God=Santa=fairies=Flying Spaghetti Monster=Alien Abductions.. and on and on.... I give as much credence to heaven as I do to hell.. and that's none at all. So, to me, your suggestion that I should have HOPE in these fictions is preposterous.
Sorry.. TO ME... not to you.. you seem happy enough.

I think the difference between you and I might be what we can accept as evidence. I think you lower the bar way too low so that you can allow even what I would consider the worst kinds of evidence serve for your beliefs. And so you believe in it all.. and I don't believe in it AT all...

AND.. you seem to imply but don't actually spell out that people who don't believe what YOU do about the afterlife have to live without hope of any kind... is that what you mean?

 

[Blastcat]

The poll... False Dichotomy.. I can't even answer it...

You are asking a question like this... Have you stopped beating your wife?
You get the same conclusion that I am a wife beater no matter if I reply yes or no.

If I am NOT a wife beater, I would need another option than just yes or no.
You didn't offer the "I don't think either choice is valid", option that I would have checked off.

So, the only POSSIBLE way for me to respond to your poll is to simply NOT answer it.
And this is supposed to engage atheists?

Well, in my case, it doesn't.

 

[Blastcat]

Speaking about coming back, there is to me fascinating research on reincarnation including tracing birth defects of children back to past lives This Scientific American blog posting is to me a very good introduction Ian Stevenson’s Case for the Afterlife: Are We ‘Skeptics’ Really Just Cynics? | Bering in Mind, Scientific American Blog Network My only quibble is his comment about karma which is based on the assumption that a succeeding life is necessarily karmicly determined by a specific preceding one. But otherwise it's well worth reading.

In the post, the author asks "So why aren’t scientists taking Stevenson’s data more seriously?"

- Maybe it's NOT due to some bias against reincarnation, but for his methods. We know that children are easily influenced, and that false memory can't be ruled out, for example.

We have to believe a huge bias against some position from all of science and NOT believe that Stevenson's data is bogus.

Prior probability says that science is rigorous in it's evaluation of data, and that no evidence for any afterlife exists so far. The author of the blog wonders if science is TOO skeptical. Well, science usually fails ONLY when it is NOT.

So, it's no use complaining that Stevenson's data gets dismissed too easily. IT HAS TO. Otherwise, we would believe in way too many bogus claims of all sorts. And that doesn't help Stevenson's credibility ONE BIT. may he rest in peace.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The poll... False Dichotomy.. I can't even answer it...

You are asking a question like this... Have you stopped beating your wife?
You get the same conclusion that I am a wife beater no matter if I reply yes or no.

If I am NOT a wife beater, I would need another option than just yes or no.
You didn't offer the "I don't think either choice is valid", option that I would have checked off.

So, the only POSSIBLE way for me to respond to your poll is to simply NOT answer it.
And this is supposed to engage atheists?

Well, in my case, it doesn't.

Thank you for your feedback.

The poll is basically to know if it is worth it wasting time believing in God if He didn't exist with the stipulation:

This is provided believing in God leads to heaven and disbelieving in Him leads to hell.

If yes it is worth it, then it is the option #1, and of no it's not worth it, it is not worth it, it is option #2.

My own choice was that yes it is worth it if my believing in God was for nothing as I won't be losing anything if I die, while if I didn't believe in him and He turned to be real, I'd go to hell. I know other scenarios exist, but I'm interested in these two only. Simply put, it is as if you are an atheist came to me, a Muslim, asking me "what if your God turnes out to be not real and you wasted you time worshiping him resulting in you don't go to heaven?" (for option #1), then I reply to you: "it is better than not believing in Him like you do and He turns out to be real resulting in you going to hell" (for option #2). Of course I'm not judging that non Muslims will certainly go to hell, I'm only giving it as an example.

I didn't say it was to engage atheists. I wanted to know their opinion along with the opinions of believers.

Please keep in mind that I'm not claiming that the poll is perfect. I do look at it from time to time and do fixes to it.