Gnostic discussion: "How Real is Reality?"

[Miskellybones]

Hello, this is my first post (besides introductions) on this forum, which I joined because of the gnostic section. Now, not knowing any other people seeking Gnosis I have never really been able to talk about it with anyone who has a deep understanding. Anyway...

I put this forward, that we (some of us) believe in physical reality as a flawed creation of the demiurge. Instead I suggest, though this is not a wholly original idea, that reality is not real at all. There is strong evidence that the human mind does not in fact "view" reality. Indeed our senses, which are our only true evidence of a physical world can often be fooled and indeed it has been suggested that our senses are a personal thing, that you do not, to use an old idea, see the same blue that I do.

Add to this the fact that this same evidence that our mind in fact takes in information from the senses and stores it, putting our own spin on the events, that fit our senses. So we could perhaps not view reality in real time, but view a "recording" that is fed to us by our own mind. Taking this idea, if we do not view reality as it happens but this mental "recording" can we actually be sure that reality is what we see? Or, indeed, that anything exists at all, bar our own mind?

I know that I exist and am sure you know that you exist but personally I have no evidence, beyond my senses that any other person, or any other thing actually exists. So our senses are our only link to "reality" yet these senses do not actually link us directly to the world. As such the conclusion I come to is that there is no blind god, no Samael, no flawed world. There is only God and the "true" world, which by teaching can be reached through gnosis. However without being in a correct mental or spiritual state we cannot hope to comprehend this realm and remain sane, or even to continue existing. As such our mind spins a web of sense, taking the true world and putting our own spin on it, if you will, so that it "makes sense" to us.

Therefore the physical world is an illusion created by our senses - the "black eyed prison"

Discuss.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think that the only reality for any of us is the one we fashion for ourselves.

 

[Free4all]

I think that if you jump off a building you will go Splat :areyoucra no matter what reality your mind is in.

 

[shema]

I think that the only reality for any of us is the one we fashion for ourselves.

agreed..

 

[Miskellybones]

I think that the only reality for any of us is the one we fashion for ourselves.

True, but my point is that our personal reality cannot be accepted as a representation of "true" reality. What we see and hear and smell and feel is simply not real.

Even if you accept that there is a solid "reality" there are multiple issues to confront within that. For example time - Time (personal time) is subjective to experience, slowing down or speeding up depending on stress, heat, mental state etc. Even objective, or "clock" time changes depending on gravity, so for every 1 second on Earth there are 1.000002 seconds on the sun. So if time, which we use to measure all experience, is subjective then can we be sure any experience happened as we remember it?

I think that if you jump off a building you will go Splat :areyoucra no matter what reality your mind is in.

Following this, if we accept time as subjective, then we know that time slows down directly propertionally to the slowing of the body's metabolism. So in near death experiences it is possible to live through your entire life in "real time" for you, but milliseconds for an objective observer. Therefore it is possible to be "reincarnated" in your own mind, as your awareness of time slows down so much that you can live another life in your dying moment. This would continue to happen each time you came to die. So how do you know you haven't done that, and are now reliving your life infinitely, your sense of time never allowing you to cease to exist?

 

[sandandfoam]

From my perspective everything is subjective. I believe in objective reality but to be human is to be trapped in subjectivity.
I think it might be that the only truth we can know is that the nature of what is within and what is without is unknowable. That if in attempting to make sense of either or both we develop our own myths, and that provided we experience these myths as coherent, then for us they are true.

my point is that our personal reality cannot be accepted as a representation of "true" reality. What we see and hear and smell and feel is simply not real.

I agree. "It is a fact of neuroscience that everything we experience is actually a figment of our imagination" - A perspective on 3-D Visual illusions, Scientific American Mind, Oct/Nov 2008 issue
The article also quotes neurologist Sir John Eccles - "I want you to realize that there exists no colour in the natural world, and no sound - nothing of this kind; no textures, no patterns, no beauty, no scent."
But we experience it as real.

 

[3.14]

i can make you experiance reality diffrently just by messing up your neurochemistry, and i ain't god(yet ) so it must mean that even reality is relative

 

[raybo]

Ante-Nicene Fathers/Volume II/THE PASTOR OF HERMAS/Book Second./Commandment Fourth. On Putting One's Wife Away for Adultery. - Wikisource

Chap. II.
I asked him again, and said, “Since the Lord has vouchsafed to dwell always with me, bear with me while I utter a few words;[8] for I understand nothing, and my heart has been hardened by my previous mode of life. Give me understanding, for I am exceedingly dull, and I understand absolutely nothing.” And he answered and said unto me, “I am set over repentance, and I give understanding to all who repent. Do you not think,” he said, “that it is great wisdom to repent? for repentance is great wisdom.[9] For he who has sinned understands that he acted wickedly in the sight of the Lord, and remembers the actions he has done, and he repents, and no longer acts wickedly, but does good munificently, and humbles and torments his soul because he has sinned. You see, therefore, that repentance is great wisdom.” And I said to him, “It is for this reason, sir, that I inquire carefully into all things, especially because I am a sinner; that I may know what works I should do, that I may live: for my sins are many and various.” And he said to me, “You shall live if you keep my commandments,[10] and walk in them; and whosoever shall hear and keep these commandments, shall live to God.”

9. Repentance … wisdom. For he who repents obtains great intelligence. For he feels that he has sinned and acted wickedly.—Vat. [“Wisdom and understanding;” spiritual gifts here instanced as requisite to true penitence and spiritual life.]

 

[Willamena]

i can make you experiance reality diffrently just by messing up your neurochemistry, and i ain't god(yet ) so it must mean that even reality is relative

Unless, of course, you're really doing that. Then reality is absolute.

 

[Kay]

This could become a really cool thread if it gets attention and doesn't get buried.

I remember reading something a while back (but cannot remember the source) that was discussing Immanuel Kant and phenomenal versus noumenal reality. It made the comment that to say something like "This pen is blue" is a nonsense statement. It might be more accurate (but not completely accurate) to say something like "I perceive this object, which I call a pen, while viewing it in this atmosphere, under a yellow sun, to be blue."

(I know somebody could do a better job than I did at writing out all the nuances required to have the sentence be logically complete. Please do so. )

The point is that we have no way of knowing that the pen is blue. If we were writing with the same pen under a sun that cast a different spectrum of light, would it still be blue?

And that is just one aspect (color) of how we perceive reality. Taste, sound and most especially matter/energy, are all up in the air.

But still, I think reality really exists. I think, however, that we need to recognize the subjectivity involved and quit being so dogmatic about certain things. Perhaps this is part of gnosis?

 

[Miskellybones]

"The object, which I refer to as a pen, as percieved in my phaeron by my conscious mind, is percieved to be blue under a spectrum of visible light, in these atmospheric conditions by myself"

Thank you for that post By the Way, it was the kind of discussion I had hoped to see in the thread :clap

Now, if we take this from a Gnostic viewpoint speaking, not scientifically, but also religiously, it opens up a whole new discussion. Using the dual mind philosophy we can see that in fact what "we" percieve as the Eidolon (lower mind) is in fact censored and edited by the Daemon (higher self) who is in a position relative, yet at the same time objective from our point in Spacetime.

The Daemon can see from it's viewpoint the entirety of spacetime that we will traverse, and can selectively impose itself on our minds or senses, which it shares, causing visions of Doppelgangers, hearing voices, prophecy etc. It has even been theorised that the Daemon dwells within the non-dominant side of the brain, directly editing our view of reality as it comes from our senses into the brain, before it is known to the concious mind.

I call to mind the case of Solomon V Shereshevski whose Daemon was in fact dominant. Here was a man who had gone past schizophrenia and out the other side. He remembered everything that had ever happened to him, or that he ahd ever percieved - he had no subconscious only a fully concious mind which had an altered view of spacetime. What is interesting is that Shereshevski percieved numbers and sounds, amongst other things as colours, sounds, tastes and smells. His senses mingled to create a perhaps greater view of reality and he never forgot any of these stimuli.

Shereshevski was his Daemon, he had no Eidolon, or it was dormant. As such he percieved a very different reality to "normal" people, proving that the Daemon percieves a true reality and we (the eidolon) percieve an illusory bubble of sensory imagination. Unfortunatelly Shereshevski was unable to cope with the huge sensory input and was quite probably mad, his weak or dormant Eidolon feebly attempting to process the true reality, which he was not in the correct mental and spiritual state to recieve.

Shereshevski very nearly had Gnosis thrust upon him, save that this is impossible. All the same he shows us that we cannot trust the reality we percieve to be anything other than an illusion created by our Daemon, to shield our unprepared minds from the true reality. This repeats my earlier point - nothing that we percieve exists only the Daemon can percieve reality as it is. Only at the point of attaining Gnosis can the Daemon and Eidolon join into one being, that can percieve the truth of Existance.

 

[RomCat]

God is reality.

 

[Miskellybones]

That of corse depends on which God you are talking about.

Remember this is the Gnostic forum and the general Gnostic belief is that the God of the Old Testament is a false god, the Demiurgos or "Half Creator" who, ignorant of the true God created a flawed world - the physical realm.

The true God is generally accepted by Gnostic Christians to be the God of the New Testament, who exists in a "true" reality, which can only be reached by gnosis, or perhaps only that in reaching in can gnosis be found. There are many differing views.

What I suggested in my first post was that the Demiurge does not, in fact, exist and neither does the world. There is only the realm of the true God. However, in our present mental or spiritual state, we cannot percieve it, or we do not allow ourselves to see it.

I could go into more detail about Duality, subjective pereption etc. but I think I've said enough for now.

 

[raybo]

Commandment Third. On Avoiding Falsehood, and on the Repentance of Hermas for His Dissimulation.
Again he said to me, “Love the truth, and let nothing but truth proceed from your mouth,[1] that the spirit which God has placed in your flesh may be found truthful before all men; and the Lord, who dwelleth in you,[2] will be glorified, because the Lord is truthful in every word, and in Him is no falsehood. They therefore who lie deny the Lord, and rob Him, not giving back to Him the deposit which they have received. For they received from Him a spirit free from falsehood.[3] If they give him back this spirit untruthful, they pollute the commandment of the Lord, and become robbers.” On hearing these words, I wept most violently. When he saw me weeping, he said to me, “Why do you weep?” And I said, “Because, sir, I know not if I can be saved.” “Why?” said he. And I said, “Because, sir, I never spake a true word in my life, but have ever spoken cunningly to all,[4] and have affirmed a lie for the truth to all; and no one ever contradicted me, but credit was given to my word. How then can I live, since I have acted thus?” And he said to me, “Your feelings are indeed right and sound, for you ought as a servant of God to have walked in truth, and not to have joined an evil conscience with the spirit of truth, nor to have caused sadness to the holy and true Spirit.”[5] And I said to him, “Never, sir, did I listen to these words with so much attention.” And he said to me, “Now you hear them, and keep them, that even the falsehoods which you formerly told in your transactions may come to be believed through the truthfulness of your present statements. For even they can become worthy of credit. If you keep these precepts, and from this time forward you speak nothing but the truth,[6] it will be possible for you to obtain life. And whosoever shall hear this commandment, and depart from that great wickedness falsehood, shall live to God.”

Miskellybones,

It appears such things have been discussed before. It is a far reach to say we are dealing with Demiurgos in the Old Testament. Yet, it is not... a too difficult reach to say the Demiurgos has spawned a great wickedness falsehood. Such insight would be consistent with scripture of the three (Israel,Islam,Christianity) but as well as the scripture of the Hindu, Buddhist.


Not all are able to see what Hermas has shared above.

 

[raybo]

Commandment Second.
On Avoiding Evil-Speaking, and on Giving Alms in Simplicity.
He said to me, “Be simple and guileless, and you will be as the children who know not the wickedness that ruins the life of men. First, then, speak evil of no one, nor listen with pleasure to any one who speaks evil of another. But if you listen, you will partake of the sin of him who speaks evil, if you believe the slander which you hear;[1] for believing it, you will also have something to say against your brother. Thus, then, will you be guilty of the sin of him who slanders. For slander is evil[2] and an unsteady demon. It never abides in peace, but always remains in discord. Keep yourself from it, and you will always be at peace with all. Put on a holiness in which there is no wicked cause of offence, but all deeds that are equable and joyful. Practise goodness; and from the rewards of your labours, which God gives you, give to all the needy in simplicity, not hesitating as to whom you are to give or not to give. Give to all, for God wishes His gifts to be shared amongst all. They who receive, will render an account to God why and for what they have received. For the afflicted who receive will not be condemned,[3] but they who receive on false pretences will suffer punishment. He, then, who gives is guiltless. For as he received from the Lord, so has he accomplished his service in simplicity, not hesitating as to whom he should give and to whom he should not give. This service, then, if accomplished in simplicity, is glorious with God. He, therefore, who thus ministers in simplicity, will live to God.[4] Keep therefore these commandments, as I have given them to you, that your repentance and the repentance of your house may be found in simplicity, and your heart[5] may be pure and stainless.”

 

[raybo]

Commandment First.
On Faith in God.
First of all, believe[1] that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing. He alone is able to contain the whole, but Himself cannot be contained.[2] Have faith therefore in Him, and fear Him; and fearing Him, exercise self-control. Keep these commands, and you will cast away from you all wickedness, and put on the strength of righteousness, and live to God, if you keep this commandment.



Miskellybones,


Is it so terrible to recognize a Dark Lord who has fashioned the comings and goings on the earth to his liking? Truly this one does exist, yet what should come of that one who seeks God status and those duped by him? This does not change the points you are making and you should continue to do so. The gnosis is required!

 

[Miskellybones]

I would like to point out, that what I have spoken of here does not necessarily represent my personal views, though they are similar, I was simply trying to provoke discussion.

I think now would be a good time to summarise my earlier points, in one post.

1: Reality is subjective, and therefore we cannot actually know that it is there, as we have only our senses to prove this and our senses cannot be trusted.

2: All we know is that we exist, within our own phaneron (personal universe) we cannot know for sure that anything we sense, including memory and other people, is anything but an illusion of the mind.

3: The proof of the ineffieciency of the senses comes from scientific evidence that shows that the human mind views reality only belatedly, not in a real time feed from the senses. Therefore what we see no longer exists, in the present.

4: There are two minds within a spirit, the Daemon and the Eidolon. We, as the Eidolon cannot percieve the true reality and therefore the Daemon creates an illusion, which allows us to process the world in a way that "makes sense".

5: Time, is also subjective and as the measure of reality this proves the universal illusion.

6: Only God exists, all other things are an illusion, allowing us to generate the correct mental and spiritual state to percieve the "true" reality. We dwell within a Black eyed prison of the senses.

Demiurgos does not fit into this, for if there is nothing but God, then what did Demiurgos create?

Now the topic changes, and I ask you seekers of Gnosis to aid me. How can Demiurgos fit into this world view?

I can think of several arguements:

1: Our souls emenate from God, however Demiurgos somehow took away our gnosis and created the black eyed prison. This shows him as less ignorant or tragic, and more in opposition of God.

2: He split our minds, leaving the Daemon, who still percieves God, trapped alongside his Eidolon, who does not have gnosis.

3: We were created by Demiurgos, who thought himself to be the only being in existance. This explains why we cannot percieve the true God, or why we do not have gnosis.

Can you think of any more? Or a counter to my philosophy?

 

[Halcyon]

As someone who was gnostic for several years, this is my opinion;

1: Reality is subjective, and therefore we cannot actually know that it is there, as we have only our senses to prove this and our senses cannot be trusted.

2: All we know is that we exist, within our own phaneron (personal universe) we cannot know for sure that anything we sense, including memory and other people, is anything but an illusion of the mind.

3: The proof of the ineffieciency of the senses comes from scientific evidence that shows that the human mind views reality only belatedly, not in a real time feed from the senses. Therefore what we see no longer exists, in the present.

If this is true then we have two choices, either live in a stupor not trusting our senses nor our mental faculties which are shaped by our senses. Or we can operate on the assumption that our senses do, even if only in limited form, reflect the reality that surrounds us in a meaningful way.

4: There are two minds within a spirit, the Daemon and the Eidolon. We, as the Eidolon cannot percieve the true reality and therefore the Daemon creates an illusion, which allows us to process the world in a way that "makes sense".

I haven't heard of this before, but if the Daemon is showing us the world through some kind of illusory filter we'd be in a poor position to do anything about point 6...

6: Only God exists, all other things are an illusion, allowing us to generate the correct mental and spiritual state to percieve the "true" reality. We dwell within a Black eyed prison of the senses.

...because every input we receive through our senses, acquired knowledge or internal contemplation would by necessity be filtered through that same illusory worldview. Thus blocking any attempt to know the "true" God because any gnosis we'd acquire could only ever be illusory gnosis.

Which would lead me into a forth option to your conclusions, that Yaldabaoth is just as much a part of God as his mother or Barbelo or any other aeon. That a truly perfect God must be complete in his perfection which necessitates that he contain illusion alongside clarity, ignorance alongside wisdom and hate alongside love.

That perhaps gnosis isn't best acquired by separating ourselves from the Demiurge's universe, but by acknowledging our place within it, not as the Children of Seth but as the sons and daughters of Saklas - flawed creations of a flawed god, but flaws necessary to complete the Monad's perfection.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Therefore the physical world is an illusion created by our senses - the "black eyed prison"

Discuss.

Hi Miskellybones, welcome to RF.

IMO, it is a mortal's personal limited perception of the world that creates the illusion, the maya if you like, not that the world is itself illusion.

Human perceptions of the cosmic vibrations accessible through the local environment to its mind and sensory system are limited by its intrinsic design and result in a unique but illusionary conception of reality, but nevertheless the cosmic vibrations that constitute and underlie this 'illusionary' world, are real. IOW, the real is beyond the capability of the mortal mind to realize, and it intended to be that way by design, so in a way, it is true that man can't know true reality. However what is impossible for man is not necessarily impossible for G-D.

 

[Brahman]

Great topic! im not Gnostic, though this was too interesting to not post in. This falls down the lines of Dharmic thinking. they belive that the world we see is actually just a creation of the mind and the senses. this is why an enlightened one has dropped the mind, or has stopped all thoughts. to get out of the illusion, they stop whats creating the illusion, the mind. in reality there is no blue, no cars, no anything. there is only one, i beleive that everything is an illusion and that consciousness is God. Consciousness without thought, takes away all illusion. Everything is but and extention of this one great consciousness, or the universal soul, by which i call Brahman. everything arises from consciousness, but the mind distorts is.