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Giants and Gods/Goddesses in Norse belief

Discussion in 'Heathenry DIR' started by Wild Fox, May 27, 2020.

  1. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You should have read the Avesta (Gatha) description. This book is like Vedas, a pre-zoroaster lore. Which is surely more than 3,000 years old, and I hear from you that it may have been borrowed from Bible. That is your Abrahamic ego shouting loud. This Macoudi, is another Abrahamic ego. There is a mention in the story that the summers last only two months and the rest of ten are winter. And it mentions that even the highest of the peaks will be covered by snow to the height of so many cubits. The situation cannot arise in any situation other than the ice-age. Read, read and read the translation. You are twisting it out of shape.
     
  2. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    Not at all :) When I´m comparing the ancient cultural myths, I´m not biased.
    So how can you then refer to the global Ice Age, in your arguments of a "flood by snow" in connection with the Avesta story of creation?
    "Will be"? This sentense is illogical if it shoud be connected to describe a past "Ice Age" situation.
    To my knowledge, this happen ANNUALLY on lots of mountains - if ever the snow disappears on some mountains - so you can´t take THE Ice-Age as an argument in generally.
    Maybe you should UN-TWIST your understanding of this "flood by snow" and the Avesta story of creation? :)
     
    #42 Native, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  3. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Of course you don't your original post ignored the Greek origin of Orion. Your explanations are UPG and that's OK just don't try to co-opt others into believing your ideas are mainstream, either in academia or the neopagan community.

    No. The issue is yours, you stated it you support it and if you have no other reference or understanding other than the figure has a slim waist then stop presenting it as anything other than your own idea..

    Glad you posed this as a question but seriously if you bothered to read the myths you would know that Orion is attested in Homer's Odyssey as hunting with a bronze club/mace. That is the advantage of actually reading the mythology rather than putting your personal spin on it. I gave you the reference, clearly you didnt bother to read it:

    Homer, Odyssey 11. 572 :
    "[Odysseus recalls the shades of the dead he saw in the Underworld :] Next I discerned huge Orion, driving wild beasts together over the field of asphodel, the very ones that he once had killed on lonely mountains, he grasped in his hands a mace of bronze, never to be broken."

    MACE
    A mace is a blunt weapon, a type of club or virge that uses a heavy head on the end of a handle to deliver powerful strikes. A mace typically consists of a strong, heavy, wooden or metal shaft, often reinforced with metal, featuring a head made of stone, bone, copper, bronze, iron, or steel.

    Why was it bronze because Homer's Odyssey was written in the bronze age.

    It's not a 'natural' explanation, it's your explanation based on nothing more than UPG or new age neopagan reductionism. If you bothered to read Norse mythology, or Old Norse specialist interpretations of the mythology or even understand the the intracies of social life in the Norse iron age you'd understand that Orion was not a constellation attested in the myths and that the mythos of Thor was multifaceted and unlikely to fit the reductionist view of the hunter as depictd by the constellation Orion; which is likely why the Norse did not equate Thor with the Greek Orion.

    If you cannot support this statement using myth, archeology, academic interpretation it is your UPG, which is meaningless to anyone other than you.I get that you want to tie the constellation of Orion to cultures other than Greece and deities other than Orion but that does not mean that you can.

    Why????? Simply restating you original premise does not clarify it for anyone. What the heck does; " lenked "by the gods" to the "world three" mean? Do you mean linked to the gods by the world tree? .........CLARIFY IT and explain how you think Fenris is related mythologically to Orthrus.

    It's LINKED there is no such word as lenked!!!! Which myth? Your being vague, which mythologies are you basing that statement on? World trees are an aspect of many Indo European mythologies but that does not mean Orion held the same importance or was the central constellation in each of these mythologies.

    Well glad again you asked a question rather than forcing your UPG on Norse mythology. Firstly, and I'm assuming you understand what etymology is? You cannot force your UPG on Old Norse lnguistics, the meaning of Ragnarök/ragnarökr is what it is.

    There is no connection between Ragnarök and the constellations. Ragnarök is a battle, a reckoning of the gods ending in destruction and regime change.

    And there it is, an admission that the ideas presented are yours and do not reflect mythology, archeology, linguistics or academic interpretation of the existing evidence. Hey, that's fine a good deal of modern neopaganism is UPG, I have no issue with it., just as long as its not presented as fact or a justification for perverting mythology to support a personal worldview.

    The moral of this tale is read and familiarise yourselves with the myths before posting and presenting your ideas as anything other than UPG.
     
    #43 Hildeburh, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    In the ice-age, the sub-Arctic region which had temperate climate at that time turned into a region of cold climate. People migrated in refugias in lower latitudes. This is a recorde4d fact. Perhaps the Arctic is hotting up again and that is why Tundra is melting.

    RigVeda has indications of Arctic climate: 1. Appearance of sun for less than eight months in the sky, 2. A long Arctic night of two months, still known in Hindu rituals as 'Ati-Ratra' (Greater night), 3. A dawn of continuous 30 days before the sun appeared on the horizon, 4. Existence of priests who completed their sacrificial cycle in 9 or 10 months (Navagwahas and Dashagwahas). During the night a longer, bigger ritual was conducted, and that was the 'horse sacrifice' (Ashvamedha).

    See for yourself how 'Gatha' describes it:
    "Will' because it was Ahur Mazda fore-telling Yima (Jamshed).

    vend1.jpg
    "an aredvi' deep on the highest tops of the mountain"
    vend2.jpg
     
  5. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    @Hildeburh,
    Fine, and at the same time I´ll emphazise my mythical approach and points of views.

    Quotes from this link:
    >ORION was a handsome giant granted the ability to walk on water by his father Poseidon. He served King Oinopion (Oenopion) of Khios (Chios) as huntsman for a time, but was blinded and exiled from the island after raping the king's daughter Merope. Orion then travelled across the sea to Lemnos to petition the god Hephaistos (Hephaestus) for help in recovering his sight. Lending him his assistant Kedalion (Cedalion), the god directed the giant to the rising place of the sun where Helios restored his vision. Upon returning to Greece, Orion sought out Oinopion to exact his revenge but the king hid himself away in an underground, bronze chamber.

    The giant then retired to the island of Delos or Krete (Crete) where he became a hunting companion of the goddess Artemis. After his death he was placed amongst the stars as the constellation Orion.

    There were various accounts of his death. In one version he desired to marry Artemis but her brother Apollon tricked the goddess into shooting him with an arrow as he was swimming far out at sea. In another version, Artemis slew him after he raped her handmaiden Oupis.

    The most common story, however, was that Orion bragged he would hunt down and kill all the beasts of the earth, so Gaia (Mother Earth) sent a Scorpion to destroy him. Orion and the Scorpion were afterwards placed amongst the stars as opposing constellations--one rises as the other sets<.

    ---------------

    When skimming quickly through this, the descriptions of Orion changes frequently between celestial, watery and terrestrial scenarios:

    Orion was a handsome giant – he walked on the water – and walked geographically around in Greece – and became a celestial god.

    But the real explanation comes with this:
    “Orion and the Scorpion were afterwards placed amongst the stars as opposing constellations--one rises as the other sets”.

    The Orion star constellation is one of the largest (giant) and most reckonable figures on the night Sky. This constellation rises and fall throughout the year and from your point of observation it seems on one point to “walk on the ocean” of the Earth. And it even transcends to the Underworld, i.e. under the horizon, “in an underground, bronze chamber”.

    Opposite of the Orion constellation in a Star Map, you´ll find the Scorpion constellation and this confirms the very essence in this mythical story – which of course is embedded with a human story telling method of other celestial images of deities and animals and their celestial motions.

    Of course Orion has never walked geographically around – but the constellation was possibly marked in different celestial/geographical specific directions as it annually rises and falls in order to follow the annual seasons.

    This is my emphasis and conclusion:

    The ancient myths are obviously astronomical descriptions, and if one also have a cosmological understanding of the Creation and it´s prime “deities”, you´ll logically get all celestial “daughters and sons” of the prime creation – which I locate to the center of our Milky Way where all stars, constellations, planets, our Sun and Moon is the results of this creation.

    So again: If scholars, readers, and authors are unaware of this astronomical and cosmological content in ancient creation myths, they´ll never understand what´s really going on.

    Edit: And without such specific knowledge, they´ll never get the etymology correct either.


    And, with the reference to this above: “The most common story, however, was that Orion bragged he would hunt down and kill all the beasts . . .”, I STILL think he compares nicely with Thor in all accounts.
     
    #45 Native, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  6. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    I said:
    All star constellations revolves around this celestial axis and in this sense they all are "lenked" to this. This is myths speaking of factual astronomical matters and motion and not just intellectual fable heritage.
    You percfectly understood the word but thanks for your intellectual grammar nit pickings instead of trying to understand the context. Maybe you´ll try to reply in the Danish language and then we´ll se how you fair yourself?

    I´ll await a sincere reply to my former post to you and simply ignore your insinuations above.
     
    #46 Native, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  7. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    I don´t quesion the very facts of the ICE AGE motions, but I questioned your "ICE AGE" mixing up with "a flood of snow" (i.e. the Milky Way River) in connection with the Avesta CREATION STORY.

    I didn´t question that either.
     
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    If every hing is covered with snow, what a person around 18,000 BCE would call it, a flood by snow, as it happened on a smaller scale in US & Canada last year.
    The bursting of all barriers and flowing down to earth of Aredvi Sura Anahita in 'Gathas' and Saraswati in Vedas is mentioned in the those books. But those are different stories.
    You must remember that 'Gathas' and 'Yasnas' (like Vedas) were the pre-Zoroaster lore of Indo-Iranians Aryans which were changed by Zoroaster at a later time.
     
  9. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    I don´t think that they would call it "a flood" as such a natural watery term logically derives from a "running river" and not from "a falling snow covering of a landscape".

    You´re taking historical and geographical events to argument for and underline a mythical text which is directly connected via the symbolic language to the very Avesta Story of Creation. This isn´t consistent IMO. As I said above:

     
  10. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that the way you see the myths fits how you see the world which makes sense. As I have mentioned before the Norse giants are the same as the Norse gods and goddesses to me except one is associated with the more chaotic aspects of nature and the other is the more ordered aspect of nature. It may even be that the giants represent the deities of an older time marginalized as society changed and new views of the deities were adopted. For me the giants, gods and goddesses are much more aspects and forces of our world than human like.
    So if your celestial view works and has meaning then how you see the myths works. I have enjoyed some of your links and look forward for more.
     
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  11. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    It has fascinating to read your posts since I had only the most rudimentary understanding of Hindu or Zoroaster mythology. It is refreshing to see the similarities rather than just focusing on the differences.
     
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  12. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I just saw this site which made me think of you. You may already know about it since you are familiar with much of this information but found it interesting from what you have discussed.
    Germanic Astronomy
     
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  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    @Wild Fox, since you are interested in this, here is some more:
    Fomalhaut: That was for us (Hindus and Zoroastrians), the sacred girdle of Prajapati (lit. Lord of the people).
    Zoroastrians know it in the form of 'Kushti', Hindus know it in the form of 'Yajnopavita' (the upper dress of the personage of sarifice) or Mekhala (the belt).
    And the 'mantras' (recitation) that is used when it is given to a young Hindu or Zoroastrian:

    For hindus: "Yajnopavitam paramam pavitram, prajapatyeryat sahajam purastat"
    For zoroastrians: "Fra te mazdao barat pourvanimairvyaonghanem stehar-paesanghem mainyu-tastem vanghuhim daenam Mazdayasnim"

    "Yajnopavita is high and sacred, it was born with Prajapati, of old."
    "Forth has Mazda borne to thee, the star bespangled girdle, the spirit made, the ancient one, of Mazda-Yasnianian faith."

    Some 6000 years ago, the sun rose in the asterism of Orion on the day of vernal equinox, and that was the beginning of the year for the Indo-Iranian Aryans. With that came the belief in Prajapati. 4000 years ago, it was in Pleiades, 2000 years ago, it was in Arietis, which still continues.
    We should have changed it to Pisces, but we abandoned the asterical calculations and adopted zodiacal calculations.
     
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  14. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    I must, sort off, correct you in this. It is not the way I see the myths, but a collective knowledge (which of course CAN be personally understood and interpreted) but when studying Comparative Mythology, you´ll get a COLLECTIVE global understanding.
    "Giants" in myths comes in generally FROM the chaotic (unformed) elements before the creation takes place. In this sense they are connected to chaos, but IMO they are the prime visible (Milky Way contours) results of the creation.

    In this sense, the Giants gives rises to other gods and goddesses, described as male and female star constellations in the Milky Way and also decribed in Myths of Creation as "suns and daughters of the giants".
    Thanks, I wasn´t aware of this site but it is very confirming for me to find similar ideas as this speaks of a collective knowledge. I´ll study the site and maybe return to it´s contents.
     
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  15. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    You are regurgitatiing the same argument; that you are somehow in possession of knowledge that others (even "scholars, readers, and authors" in the field) do not have; that would be hubris dude. If that is what you believe then so be it, just stop trying to sell it to other neo-pagans because it does not hold up to scrutiny.

    Considering it was me who pointed out Orion's mythology to you and gave you a link on the subject to read, I am confused on what exactly the point you are trying to make in summarising his mythos in your reply to me. But glad you did some reading on Orion's mythology.

    I am very interested in precisely how you think Thor's mythos is comparable with Orion's. Though at this point I doubt that you have enough of a workable grasp of Norse myth to do that comparison.

    I am wondering why you are posting in the Heathenry thread, your knowledge of Germanic myth and history is very limited.
     
    #55 Hildeburh, Aug 5, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  16. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    OK, I´ll try once more:
    Quote from - Orion (mythology) - Wikipedia

    “In Greek mythology, Orion (/əˈraɪən/; Ancient Greek: Ὠρίων or Ὠαρίων; Latin: Orion)[1] was a giant huntsman whom Zeus (or perhaps Artemis) placed among the stars as the constellation of Orion”.

    Me: OK then. The myth of Orion belongs to the celestial realms.

    Furthermore:
    “Ancient sources tell several different stories about Orion; there are two major versions of his birth and several versions of his death. The most important recorded episodes are his birth somewhere in Boeotia, . . .”.

    Boeotia, sometimes alternatively Latinised as Boiotia, or Beotia, is one of the regional units of Greece. It is part of the region of Central Greece. Its capital is Livadeia, and its largest city is Thebes”.

    Me: We now have an Orion star constellation which is suggested by scholars and authors to have been born in Boetia, Greece. Please tell me how a star constellation can be born on the Earth?

    Such nonsense is what happen when "scholars, readers, and authors" don´t understand the very mythical context, despite the clear notion of the celestial location of the Orion constellation. Such disconnected nonsense can be read in lots of books and encyclopedia.

    They don´t make the correct mytho-astronomically and cosmologically connections because they exclusively just read the myth intellectually as a personalized myth, completely disconnected from the real celestial facts.

    Furthermore:
    “In Greek literature he (Me: Orion) first appears as a great hunter in Homer's epic the Odyssey, where Odysseus sees his shade in the underworld”.

    Me: Here you have the Norse Myth connection of Thor and Orion. They are both “hunting giant celestial monsters”. Besides this: Do you think “the Underworld” to be a geographic location in Greece too?

    Furthermore:
    “Orion served several roles in ancient Greek culture. The story of the adventures of Orion, the hunter, is the one for which there is the most evidence (and even for that, not very much); he is also the personification of the constellation of the same name; he was venerated as a hero, in the Greek sense, in the region of Boeotia; and there is one etiological passage which says that Orion was responsible for the present shape of the Strait of Sicily”.

    (The Strait of Sicily is the strait between Sicily and Tunisia. The strait is about 145 kilometres (90 mi) wide and divides the Tyrrhenian Sea and the western Mediterranean Sea, from the eastern Mediterranean Sea. The maximum depth is 316 meters (1,037 ft).

    Me: How can the Orion star constellation possibly be responsible for this Mediterranean strait between Sicily and Tunisia?

    You see? This is exactly what happen when "scholars, readers, and authors" don´t understand the very mythical context, despite the clear notion of the celestial location of the Orion constellation.

    They don´t make the correct mytho-astronomically and cosmologically connections because they exclusively just read the myth intellectually as a personalized myth, completely disconnected from the real celestial facts of the motion of one star constellation amongst other star constellation motions and the imagery contours of the Milky Way.

    And, by calling my (35 years) interpretative analysis and notions simply as “regurgitating the same argument”, you´re apparently no better yourself in understanding the myths and it´s astronomical and cosmological connections.

    I suggest you to re-read the Orion myth in its correct location and it´s very context and look at the Orion constellation as a celestial imagery and motion which provides the very story of the Orion Myth.
     
    #56 Native, Aug 5, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  17. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    You can find more Orion informations here at - Investigating Sacred Waters, Rivers and Deities
     
  18. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    I don't understand why you are still pushing this topic on the HEATHENRY DIR, do you have anything to say regarding Germanic history, anthropology, archaeology or paganism? If your answer no and you still wanting to discuss Greek astronomical constellations go to anther DIR, perhaps Hellenismos.
     
  19. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    So, you have no comments on the exemplary scholarly nonsense interpretations as notised by me?

    I´m just "pushing the topic" of Comparative Mythology in where star constellations are mentioned in all cultures and where these are attached to the mythological stories throughout all times, even Heathen times. And in the Norse Mythology, the Greek Orion must likely refer to Thor as mentioned a couple of times, but it seems difficult for you to compare one cultural myth to another.
     
    #59 Native, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  20. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Where are these star constellations mentioned in Norse mythology that you consider are comparative to other cultures? What mythological stories are you referring to in "Heathen times" ? What cultural myths in particular would you like us to compare? Where is the relationship between Thor and Orion in Norse mythology?

    Be specific dude your still restating your eclectic UPG as though it's a fact. Siting comparative mythology means you must actually compare mythology rather than make unsupported sweeping statements. I've asked you questions in this thread before and you are yet to answer them, again I am asking (educate us if you can) where in Norse mythology does the mythos of Norse Thor compare with that of the Greek Orion?

    Answering the question might mean you will actually need to read some Norse mythology, let me know if you need me to direct you to credible sources (rather than Wikipedia). If your not prepared to support your position take your sweeping statements and your eclectic UPG elsewhere.
     
    #60 Hildeburh, Aug 19, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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