Giants and Gods/Goddesses in Norse belief

[Wild Fox]

I am interested in what is the difference between the giants and the gods/goddesses of the Aesir and Vanir. The more I read the harder it is for me to distinguish between them. Appreciate any thing to help to understand the difference between them.

 

[The Hammer]

I am interested in what is the difference between the giants and the gods/goddesses of the Aesir and Vanir. The more I read the harder it is for me to distinguish between them. Appreciate any thing to help to understand the difference between them.

AFAI understand it, the Giants are the more chaotic forces of nature, and the Gods are the more orderly aspects.

 

[Native]

I am interested in what is the difference between the giants and the gods/goddesses of the Aesir and Vanir. The more I read the harder it is for me to distinguish between them. Appreciate any thing to help to understand the difference between them.

IMO you have to connect these issues with the Norse Creation Story and take the mythical "Worlds" as representing real celestial and terrestrial realms.

Excerpt:
"Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits".
---------
This describes the initial pre-conditions of the creation where cold and hot matter comes together in a center of creation. These cold and hot elements are named as "giant forces" in the creation and the first entity in the Norse Creation is called Ymir and everything is created from this central giant.

The 3 concepts of Giants, Aesir and Vanir is connected to 3 different realms:

1) Giants is connected to the gigantic whitish structure of the Milky Way galaxy, called "Utgaard". The very contours of the Milky Way provides names to the prime female and male deities in the Norse Mythology.
2) Aesir describes the celestial (divine) realms of the Sun, Moon, Planets, Stars and Star Constellations. In the mythical understanding these are all "daughters and sons" of the Milky Way giant. That is really: All these objects were once created in the Milky Way center.
3) Vanir refers to humans and the Earth itself called "Midgaard" where the humans live in the Norse mythology. Around this terrestrial "Midgaard", the "Midgaard Serpent" encircles the entire Midgaard. Not ON the Earth but in the Sky above the Earth and it resemble the Milky Way contours all around the Earth.

In this sense, the mythical story in the Norse (and other cultures) is a real cosmogonical and cosmological explanation.

 

[Native]

AFAI understand it, the Giants are the more chaotic forces of nature, and the Gods are the more orderly aspects.

Yes, this is the scholarly thoughts of the Giant terms, but if you take the Norse "Ymir" Giant for granted, it was the result of a chaotic stage before the very creation of the Ymir Giant which in fact provided the observable order of cosmos and everything in it.

I think we just shall interpret the giant terminologi as big/huge/strong objects and creative forces.

 

[Wild Fox]

AFAI understand it, the Giants are the more chaotic forces of nature, and the Gods are the more orderly aspects.

This interpretation seems consistent with what I have come to learn. This same contrast is seen in Celtic religion and presented in a book by Marie-Louise Sjoestedt "Celtic Gods and Heros" she introduces the idea of the tribe represents human order and nature as the forces of nature. What is interesting in Celtic religion is that the God of the tribe had to unite with the goddess of nature to form the union to support the tribe.

The author also identifies a difference between more primitively described Dagda and more modern Lug who both share characteristics in common. I wonder if the Vanir and the Aesir. Yes I know they are different but to me they share much for us to share and learn from or at least worthy of discussion.

 

[Wild Fox]

IMO you have to connect these issues with the Norse Creation Story and take the mythical "Worlds" as representing real celestial and terrestrial realms.

Excerpt:
"Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits".
---------
This describes the initial pre-conditions of the creation where cold and hot matter comes together in a center of creation. These cold and hot elements are named as "giant forces" in the creation and the first entity in the Norse Creation is called Ymir and everything is created from this central giant.

The 3 concepts of Giants, Aesir and Vanir is connected to 3 different realms:

1) Giants is connected to the gigantic whitish structure of the Milky Way galaxy, called "Utgaard". The very contours of the Milky Way provides names to the prime female and male deities in the Norse Mythology.
2) Aesir describes the celestial (divine) realms of the Sun, Moon, Planets, Stars and Star Constellations. In the mythical understanding these are all "daughters and sons" of the Milky Way giant. That is really: All these objects were once created in the Milky Way center.
3) Vanir refers to humans and the Earth itself called "Midgaard" where the humans live in the Norse mythology. Around this terrestrial "Midgaard", the "Midgaard Serpent" encircles the entire Midgaard. Not ON the Earth but in the Sky above the Earth and it resemble the Milky Way contours all around the Earth.

In this sense, the mythical story in the Norse (and other cultures) is a real cosmogonical and cosmological explanation.

I am not sure I see the giants as necessarily large in size and the term seems to be better connected with natural and more chaotic aspects of the world. I do not know any relationship between the giant and the milky way. If you can identify where you found this relationship I am willing to listen. I would agree that the Vanir appear more associated with the earth but this relationship of milky way - sun, moon, planets - Earth and this sounds like someone trying to fit a astronomical structure to Norse religion and not supported by what we know.

 

[Wild Fox]

Yes, this is the scholarly thoughts of the Giant terms, but if you take the Norse "Ymir" Giant for granted, it was the result of a chaotic stage before the very creation of the Ymir Giant which in fact provided the observable order of cosmos and everything in it.

I think we just shall interpret the giant terminologi as big/huge/strong objects and creative forces.

Again I do not see the giants as necessarily "big" and they are both creative and destructive forces.

 

[Native]

I am not sure I see the giants as necessarily large in size and the term seems to be better connected with natural and more chaotic aspects of the world.

I´ve already spoke above of "gigantic forces" in connection with the creation from "no order" = chaos to the order of the creation.

Further informations from here - The Creation of the Cosmos - Norse Mythology for Smart People
"As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumla (“Abundance of Humming”[2]), emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri (“Progenitor”[3]), the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor (“Son”[4]), who married Bestla (perhaps “Wife”[5]), the daughter of the giant Bolthorn (“Baleful Thorn”[6]). The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve".
-------------
This mythical text clearly speaks of "Giant Entities" in the unfolded creation and not of "chaotic forces or monsters". The giant terms refers to human made images of celestial observations - with reference to the Aesir dimension as I wrote here:

"2) Aesir describes the celestial (divine) realms of the Sun, Moon, Planets, Stars and Star Constellations. In the mythical understanding these are all "daughters and sons" the giant Buri in Norse mythology. Of course these celestial objects are not "chaotic monsters" but an expression of a cosmic ORDER.

I do not know any relationship between the giant and the milky way. If you can identify where you found this relationship I am willing to listen.

Yes I can:
The Milky Way God
The Milky Way Goddess
In most ancient cultures these represent the prime pair of deities in creation.

I would agree that the Vanir appear more associated with the earth but this relationship of milky way - sun, moon, planets - Earth and this sounds like someone trying to fit a astronomical structure to Norse religion and not supported by what we know.

"What we know" depends on what we´ve have learned from the past and from what we observe and keep on observing for generations. If we don´t observe the Milky Way structure, we don´t know of the mythical contents and connected celestial contexts.

The mythology of the Milky Way isn´t just "someone trying to fit a astronomical structure to Norse religion".

It´s a cross-cultural human observation from all over the world.

 

[Hildeburh]

I am interested in what is the difference between the giants and the gods/goddesses of the Aesir and Vanir. The more I read the harder it is for me to distinguish between them. Appreciate any thing to help to understand the difference between them.

The Jötunn, Æsir, Vanir, Dwarves and Landvættir in my opinion are best seen as different tribes, just like there were many human Germanic tribes. As with the human Germanic tribes they intermarriaged, traded, squabbled and disagreed. Many of the Æsir and Freyr of the Vanir are interrelated through either marriage and birth to the Jötunn.

As with the Æsir some Jötunn, such as Skaði appears to have had a cult following.

 

[Hildeburh]

Again I do not see the giants as necessarily "big" and they are both creative and destructive forces.

Agreed. There is no literary evidence that the Jötunn are in any way incompatible with the Æsir, in terms of marriage and reproduction Some of the Æsir are said to be able to shape shift and in the case of Thor apparently take on massive proportions to wade through the rivers, such as the Kormpt and Ormpt every day. In Thor’s conflicts with the Jötunn, such as Hrungnir who was called the mightiest of the Jötunn, Thor is not described as disadvantaged in terms of size.

I think it is probably old scholarship that presents the Æsir as a creative force and Jötunn as a destructive one. These forces are two sides of the same coin rather than a dicotomy; one potent example in Norse myth is the creation of the Miðgarðr from the killing of Ymir by Odin; creation from destruction.

 

[Native]

The Jötunn, Æsir, Vanir, Dwarves and Landvættir in my opinion are best seen as different tribes, just like there were many human Germanic tribes. As with the human Germanic tribes they intermarriaged, traded, squabbled and disagreed. Many of the Æsir and Freyr of the Vanir are interrelated through either marriage and birth to the Jötunn.
As with the Æsir some Jötunn, such as Skaði appears to have had a cult following.

If taking such an approach, you´re indirectly asserting that the deities in Norse Mythology lived on the Earth, which of course cannot be asserted when reading the Norse Story of Creation which of course is a much broader telling than a human psychological telling of ancient deities.

 

[Native]

Agreed. There is no literary evidence that the Jötunn are in any way incompatible with the Æsir, in terms of marriage and reproduction Some of the Æsir are said to be able to shape shift and in the case of Thor apparently take on massive proportions to wade through the rivers, such as the Kormpt and Ormpt every day. In Thor’s conflicts with the Jötunn, such as Hrungnir who was called the mightiest of the Jötunn, Thor is not described as disadvantaged in terms of size.

Is that really so? Have you heard of the mythical story where Thor and the Twins Røskva and Tjalfe visited the Jøtunn Giant Skrymer and they all slept in a cottage, which at the coming daylight, showed up to be the one glove of the giant?

I would say this was a significant sizable disadvantage of Thor

 

[Hildeburh]

If taking such an approach, you´re indirectly asserting that the deities in Norse Mythology lived on the Earth, which of course cannot be asserted when reading the Norse Story of Creation which of course is a much broader telling than a human psychological telling of ancient deities.

Am I? How so? I simply said they can be seen as different tribes, just as there were many Germanic tribes. Don't recall saying these tribes lived in Miðgarðr, though some of the gods/esses were clearly believed to have walked among humans and interacted with them.

 

[Hildeburh]

Is that really so? Have you heard of the mythical story where Thor and the Twins Røskva and Tjalfe visited the Jøtunn Giant Skrymer and they all slept in a cottage, which at the coming daylight, showed up to be the one glove of the giant?

I would say this was a significant sizable disadvantage of Thor

And ? You cannot apply human notions such as size or morality to the regin. In terms of them being different tribes that reflect human tribes; the gods married jötnar maids and bore children by them, some of the Æsir are products of unions with jötnar and Freya was promised in marriage to a Dwarf if a task was not completed; indicating in mythology these categories of divinities where considered as compatable. No different than human Germanic tribes in that they intermarried, feuded, fought and schemed against each other.

Skrymer may have been massive in comparison to Thor but Thor (and Loki) in the same mythological story succeed in the tasks set by Útgarða-Loki; Thor lowers the ocean in a drinking contest and lifts Jǫrmungandr, Loki competed against wildfire and Þjálfi raced against thought. Thor also drags Jǫrmungandr up from the depths when fishing with Hymir, quite a task considering Jǫrmungandr encircles Midgard.

Translation of jötnar to modern english giants can be misleading as not all jötnar were large in size, as Norse mythology clearly reflects. For example, whilst Ymir, was obviously massive as Odin fashioned Midgard from his form and Skrymer was so large that Thor slept in his glove; Skaði, Gerd and possibly Jörð were jötnar and wives of the Æsir gods. In mythology it is best not to see things in black and white; concepts such as large and small, moral and immoral and creation and destruction are not as simple as we sometimes wish them to be.

 

[Native]

Am I? How so? I simply said they can be seen as different tribes, just as there were many Germanic tribes. Don't recall saying these tribes lived in Miðgarðr, though some of the gods/esses were clearly believed to have walked among humans and interacted with them.

@Hildeburh,
It wasn´t my intent to be patronizing or anything like that. I just tried to give you an alternative way of looking at the mythology as a real astronomical and cosmological description and explanation.

You obviously seem to have a fine knowledge of the inherited myths in Norse Mythology and I fully understand your points of views. In a sense they really have a sort of "tribal" comparisons" as humans of course felt connected with the deities and forces they observed on and above the Earth as also described in the telling of the Norse World Tree, Ask Yggdrasil and it´s 3 main dimensions with top branches in the Sky and it´s roots in the "Underworld" i.e. beneath the Earth horizon. This is IMO a real astronomical and cosmological knowledge.

The ancient oral traditions is build up by factual observations and embedded with a symbolic narrative which is connected to human life and environment in generally. Celestial and terrestrial scenario´s are compared to human images and activity and told into a human context which makes the single story to be easily remembered in generations.

Thor also drags Jǫrmungandr (Me: The Midgaard Serpent) up from the depths when fishing with Hymir, quite a task considering Jǫrmungandr encircles Midgard.

Yes this is a huge task considering that Midgaard is the location where the humans live. And if Midgaard represent the Earth, the encircling Midgaard Serpent must be a large gigantic/celestial structure which is observable all around the Earth. A structure which then only can be the very contours of the Milky Way. That is then logically: The Midgaard Serpent represent the Milky Way all around the Earth, the Mid-gaard dimension where all humans live.

Translation of jötnar to modern english giants can be misleading as not all jötnar were large in size, as Norse mythology clearly reflects.

I in fact agree in this. I take "jötnar" to mean "large" in general an IMO this can be both "larger structures" and "strong forces". In Norse Mythology, dwarfs have very strong forces and some celestial constellations represent larger humanized images, for instant with the Star Constellation of Orion which, IMO is connected to Thor where the 3 belt stars represents Thor´s belt of strength. And of course the largest celestial scenario of the Milky Way also fits the terms of giants and "jötnar".

In mythology it is best not to see things in black and white; concepts such as large and small, moral and immoral and creation and destruction are not as simple as we sometimes wish them to be.

Of course not. Everything is rainbow colored and has two camplemental sides at least. But regarding the myths and it´s celestial contents, it is very important to differ between sizes as different star constellations represent different mythological stories and connections.

Morality is IMO closely connected to the overall nature and to the interactions between humans living in a natural society with the common knowledge that everyone is equal and depending on each other and where all basics are evenly distributed and provided.

Creation and "destruction" is also a natural cycle of life and this is also mirrored in most of the ancient myths as eternal cyclical "deities of creation" and "deities of dissolution" and re-creation.

Hope to hear from you soon

Best Wishes
Native
Ancient Science. The Ancient and native Way of Knowledge

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am interested in what is the difference between the giants and the gods/goddesses of the Aesir and Vanir. The more I read the harder it is for me to distinguish between them.

If I go by the Hindu example, the Vanir are the loosing Gods, the Aesir are those who won. For example, the original ruler of the universal order was Varuna (Ouranos), but Indra replaced him and Varuna became the lord of the netherworld, a world of dark water. 'Asura' in Sanskrit means powerful. So sure Varuna is powerful. He is an Asura. Even demons are mentioned as Asura, since they too are powerful. And if some people are very powerful, then we visualize them as giants.

That is how Zoroastrians and Hindus took the meaning of 'Daitya/Deo' in common parlance (this is different from Deva (God). 'He is physically like a daitya/deo - very big, very powerful - and bad'). Well, that may not be exactly like what you have. Both Gods and Asuras in later Hinduism are considered brothers born of two sisters, and sons of Sage Kashyapa. Aditi being the mother of Gods, Diti being the mother of Daityas and Asuras. Why, because Diti chose a wrong time to have sex with Kashyapa. He was disturbed in an austerity and was not in the mood.

 

[Wild Fox]

If I go by the Hindu example, the Vanir are the loosing Gods, the Aesir are those who won. For example, the original ruler of the universal order was Varuna (Ouranos), but Indra replaced him and Varuna became the lord of the netherworld, a world of dark water. 'Asura' in Sanskrit means powerful. So sure Varuna is powerful. He is an Asura. Even demons are mentioned as Asura, since they too are powerful. And if some people are very powerful, then we visualize them as giants.

My view of the giants is they represent the natural aspects of Chaos very connected with the natural world and its elements and thus outside of the order established by the Aesir. The gods and goddesses of the Aesir represent the human aspect of creating some order out of the chaos. The Vanir represent the older gods more connected with the natural elements later subordinated but the Aesir. Unfortunately I am not as knowledgeable of Hindu gods and goddesses but if Varuna as a more primitive/nature connected god was replaced by a god representing greater order in human terms then that is very interesting. It has been proposed in Celtic myth that Dagda represents the more primitive early god then later Lugus representing a less primitive god overlapping Dagda. The use of primitive is only to represent more associated with characteristics outside of the human organization and not in anyway associated with superiority.

I have heard that Varuna, Ouranos, and Wodenaz look like they come from the same word root. Wikipedia associates Varuna initially with the sky then later to with the sea and rain. It also mentions Varuna with moral law which would be similar to Odin and the aspect of sky with Ouranos. But my understanding is limited. There is also Fjörgyn (Germanic god), Parjaniya (India god) that have linguistic as well as mythology shared along with Perkunas from the Baltic as the god of thunder and Perun the Slavic god of thunder.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Very nice, @Wild Fox , the old Gods are forgotten or downgraded and new Gods take over. Varuna replaced by Dyaus (Vedic equivalent of Zeus), Indra, Parjanya, Tvastr, in various ages. All these mythologies and language come from the same source, the Indo-Europeans distanced by regions and time. Which tribe, group of people branched out to move and at what time. When the difference is less, the mythologies are closer. If it is more, then the mythologies differ much. The closeness of Zoroastrian and Vedic mythology is one such example.

 

[Native]

If I go by the Hindu example, the Vanir are the loosing Gods, the Aesir are those who won. For example, the original ruler of the universal order was Varuna (Ouranos), but Indra replaced him and Varuna became the lord of the netherworld, a world of dark water. 'Asura' in Sanskrit means powerful. So sure Varuna is powerful. He is an Asura. Even demons are mentioned as Asura, since they too are powerful. And if some people are very powerful, then we visualize them as giants.

Mentioning deities in personal and genders is IMO the result of a general de-mythification of the overall creative forces in the Universe wich just comes in attractting and repulsig principles.

The same is the case of interpreting and taking different deities to fighting eachother as they just speaks of "forces of transitions" in the creation in general.

"Giants" = something big and this term has to be connected to either "large astronomical and cosmological figures" or "strong elementary forces" which of course cannot be said about humans.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Native, I am a strong atheist, so expect demythification from me. I follow a greater myth, so to say, of the substrate of all things in the universe, experienced and unexperienced, Brahman, which is not bound even by the laws of existence and non-existence. So I hope you would excuse me. But the other billion of my co-religionists do believe in various myths. Sometimes, each village has its own myth.

About Asuras and Daityas:
"In Hinduism, Diti (Sanskrit: दिति) is an earth goddess. She is mother of both the Marutas and the Asuras (Daityas) with the sage Kashyapa. Diti is one among a group of sixty daughters of Dakṣa and Panchajani. She is one of the thirteen wives of the sage Kashyapa.

Her sisters included Aditi (Mother of Adityas/SunGods, of which there were 7 in the beginning and the number gradually increased to 10 and then 12 to correspond with the 12 months of the year in later literature) and Satī (the first consort of Lord Shiva who immolated herself because her father Daksha, insulted Lord Shiva), among many more.

She is said to have wanted to have a son who would be more powerful than Indra (Aditi's son and the Chief of Indo-Aryan Gods). Diti used black magic to keep herself pregnant for one year. Indra used a thunderbolt to splinter the fetus into many pieces, from which originated the Marutas. That is why her progeny could not compete with Indra."
Based on Diti - Wikipedia and Hindu belief in general circulation